A thread for ideas

[Mersey86]

Yeah.

Rosco has turned into a complete internet troll lately. Not sure what's happened to him but he's become like a bitter, less entertaining version of Dantes (who I find quite entertaining). I think something about that Trump thread has got to him, or maybe it's something in his personal life and this forum is just a release for him to vent. I just ignore the wind up, agenda-driven portions of his posts and concentrate on the issues that are relevant. Namely, we're shit right now and Klopp's solutions (midfielders at the back) has not worked.

Rosco has always been a complete arse on the football forum. No idea what he's like otherwise, but on this forum he comes across as a troll with no love for Liverpool. So, his posts bother me less than some others.
When Klopp took over at Liverpool it was at a time when we were at a very low ebb - had come close to winning the league under Rodgers, but then plummeted. I grew up on the Liverpool of the late 70s and 80s, but despaired of seeing us win the league again given this current era where the richer teams have benches full of 30-50 million pound players. We cannot compete financially with City, Chelsea, United - and have had net spend significantly less than the majority of the Premier League over recent seasons.
We were incredibly fortunate to get Klopp - a perfect manager for the club, perhaps the greatest manager since Shankly, since he took something which was not working and turned it into something special. Klopp doesn't want the Guardiola/Mourinho model of outspending everybody else - he has preferred to build and coach a team to greatness. Incidentally, for me Guardiola comes across as a decent man - just prefers to have the odds stacked in his favor.
While there has been much criticism of our summer transfers, we did what was perhaps most important, and got substantial cover for the front 3. The fact that Jota has been out for almost 3 months has not helped (and I know some of us question Klopp on that for playing him against Midittyland, but younger players grow more when they have better players around them, so Klopp has usually mixed in more experienced players in the less important games - this time it went wrong). We did take a risk defensively, but have followed the model previously of not over-spending and waiting it necessary until a later window. But the plan of Van Dijk plus Gomez/Matip with Fabinho as back up was reasonable. The one thing we could not afford was to lose Van Dijk for a significant amount of time - and, due to the unbelievably reckless Pickford, that is what happened. It was immediately followed by Gomez meaning we would have to nurse players through as best we could.
The decision appears to have been to try to mix an experienced player with a less experienced player -and Fabinho/Henderson have been very good. Rhys Williams was found out and Philips is not a good option in certain games due to his lack of speed. I think the hope was to see Kabak establish himself and then perhaps pair him with Davies/Phillips. But there is a fear, justified or not ... the training staff are in best position to judge, of too much inexperience at the back.
We have been trying to hang in there for months, but something has snapped - our winning mentality has been broken, and it is a struggle to turn it around.
It is frustrating - and hard to take at a time when normal life has been so disrupted and Liverpool FC was hopefully going to be a source of hope and pleasure.
But to turn on a manager who has been the root cause of all the great times of the last few seasons is small-minded, and classless in the extreme.

 

[moron]

I agree somewhat.

The lack of quality players through injury is a huge issue.

But I feel the experiment of playing hendo/Fabinho in centre back to cover has failed overall.

Against City, maybe spurs, maybe even Utd, I'd understand it. The rest of the time I say we roll the dice & put the best team out that we can with stand ins at centre back. Worst case scenario we end up trying to out score the opposition. We've done that before.

That time we made the CL. So it can work to a point.

I agree with nearly everything - but for me the Hendo/Fab in centre back was always about short term cover but the point has been reached where we now miss them in the middle. The idea of always having to play them at the back is bought about by fear now, - I thought Phillips is actually very good and reads the game well and has good anticipation - and without seeing Davies and based on reports from his former coaches I think he will be very good for us. These players have played in defense with first team football for a while now, and Klopp has got to trust them and we have to accept they are not Gomez/Matip/VVD quality. I think so far with Kabak, the only downside is his slight lack of awareness which you can associate with someone of his age and is understandable. Can I also just say that I can't remember an instance where Phillips has missed a header - seems to win them all.

Say Klopp plays Phillips, and Kabak at the back with Fab in midfield as the main defensive midfielder - I honestly don't think it will make any difference to how well the defense does compared how well they have been dong with the Fab/Hendo partnership. I also have this theory that perhaps we don't know everything about Hendo's condition of late - playing him in defense means less running for him, but last two games he has been stretching a bit forward and I was not entirely surprised he got that injury yesterday. Suggests to me that Klopp wanted him in the team in some capacity but without having him do excessive running - well if that was the case that plan is completely fucked.

In terms of what is happening now with the front - is complete lack of timing/co-ordination with tame shots from our strikers. They need to be more aggressive. As for the midfield, they really need to speed their shit up and stop waiting for the opposition cavalry get back to their defensive positions before deciding on their next pass. Some of them and not just Curtis need to do a little running - direct running and pull opposition defenders / mids out of their positions to create the necessary space. There is just not enough of that or lack of speed in movement. If Fab comes back I want to see the following combinations in midfield:

Gini - Jones
Fab

OR

Thiago- Keita
Fab

Obviously - there will be times where we play Thiago in place of either Gini/Keita - but right now - there is a dependency on Curtis for his ball retention, and forward movement. I would also risk playing half a game without Bobby - start with Shaq / Ox / Origi in that central front role, then bring on Bobby in the later stages if needed. Those players can't have become that shit over time, they just have not been played enough to get into decent form.

If none of that bollox works - then assume we are fucked. But have to say it feels weird losing so many PL games in a row. We dominate these games so I find it hard to get really angry at times, just frustrated we keep losing these games and not doing more with the chances we are creating - everything is just off with our decision making in the final moments. But Klopp has to take some of the blame in his insistence with playing our midfielders in defense when he has got defenders to play their now - he just needs to trust them and we need to just try and outscore the opposition.

 

[keniget]

The frustration is that more often than not we haven't played particularly badly, the goals have just dried up.

I often watch us struggling against teams that sit back with 10 men behind the ball and wonder - probably rather simplisticly - whether we'd be better off letting the opposition have more of the ball and open the game up a bit.

The problems we're seeing now have been building up for quite some time now and I'm not sure that there are any easy solutions in the squad with all the injuries at the moment. There is no squad depth to speak of so we're basically flogging the same players week in, week out hoping for a miracle turn in form / luck.

The only hope I have is that things have blown up so specatularly of late that perhaps it'll prompt serious action in the summer whereas otherwise the club might have again taken the cheap way out.

 

[RedStar]

we have 8 days to prepare for the worst team in the league, according to Klopp an 8 day break was enough for City to turn things around and win 17 consecutive matches. So hopefully he uses the 8 days to come up with something approaching a bit of variation in how we play because we've been hopeless for months now. This isn't a blip, our performances have gone off a cliff in the last 12 months.

 

[moron]

The frustration is that more often than not we haven't played particularly badly, the goals have just dried up.

I often watch us struggling against teams that sit back with 10 men behind the ball and wonder - probably rather simplisticly - whether we'd be better off letting the opposition have more of the ball and open the game up a bit.

The problems we're seeing now have been building up for quite some time now and I'm not sure that there are any easy solutions in the squad with all the injuries at the moment. There is no squad depth to speak of so we're basically flogging the same players week in, week out hoping for a miracle turn in form / luck.

The only hope I have is that things have blown up so specatularly of late that perhaps it'll prompt serious action in the summer whereas otherwise the club might have again taken the cheap way out.

I agree with most of that, but i believe the issue you mention can be resolved with existing players if we are faster and more decisive in that final third which we are not. Its the slowness of the movement that is making everything predictable.

 

[Mersey86]

I often watch us struggling against teams that sit back with 10 men behind the ball and wonder - probably rather simplisticly - whether we'd be better off letting the opposition have more of the ball and open the game up a bit.

Last year we had built up different approaches - the deep ball from defence - Lovren and Van Dijk provided several of those, but Henderson only one really providing that this year; the wing backs obviously, but this year I think the defensive shortages have caused them to be more conservative and play deeper; dead ball situations saw us create a lot of goals last season, but without Van Dijk's presence that has largely gone, and free kicks are either not being given, or being wasted compared to last year. Theoretically Thiago should have been a weapon to break down the packed defences, but that hasn't worked out as well as expected .... yet. Also - the goals won by pressing - less energy perhaps this year, and no Keita who was central to this when available.
And last season we did get some favourable calls, but there's been next to nothing this season.
Maybe we need to try something different - I quite like the 5-3-2 - freeing up Robertson and Trent a little. I also have a liking for an idea I heard of pushing Trent into midfield and playing Neco in defence.
But, at the moment, I like the fact that we are coming up to March and there are only 13 games left in this horrible season.

 

[beejay]

Last year we had built up different approaches - the deep ball from defence - Lovren and Van Dijk provided several of those, but Henderson only one really providing that this year; the wing backs obviously, but this year I think the defensive shortages have caused them to be more conservative and play deeper; dead ball situations saw us create a lot of goals last season, but without Van Dijk's presence that has largely gone, and free kicks are either not being given, or being wasted compared to last year. Theoretically Thiago should have been a weapon to break down the packed defences, but that hasn't worked out as well as expected .... yet. Also - the goals won by pressing - less energy perhaps this year, and no Keita who was central to this when available.
And last season we did get some favourable calls, but there's been next to nothing this season.
Maybe we need to try something different - I quite like the 5-3-2 - freeing up Robertson and Trent a little. I also have a liking for an idea I heard of pushing Trent into midfield and playing Neco in defence.
But, at the moment, I like the fact that we are coming up to March and there are only 13 games left in this horrible season.

That's all true yet in spite of everything going tits up with injuries we were still top of the league at Xmas.

Confidence is the only explanation for the fall off a cliff form and we have to recover that belief and we will but it may be too late for this season

 

[mom]

A leader. We need a leader. Don’t know how or who, but we need one.

 

[moron]

That's all true yet in spite of everything going tits up with injuries we were still top of the league at Xmas.

Confidence is the only explanation for the fall off a cliff form and we have to recover that belief and we will but it may be too late for this season

That's the thing - I don't buy any of this confidence shit in January - how can you go top of the league at Christmas and then start thinking "Oh shit I'm scared" .... who thinks like that ? - your top of the league - 5 points clear, and then you completely fuck everything up. Who does that ? - I think it just comes down to the midfield not operating the way it needs to in the games we have drawn/lost, and of course our front men not taking those 50/75 percent chances that they have been getting in games. No team drops this badly in form after being top of the league at Christmas - it just does not add up statistically and has never happened before like this (least I don't think it has).

 

[mwake]

Just waiting for Brewster to score a hattrick for Sheffield United against us to cap the season off!

 

[RedStar]

That's the thing - I don't buy any of this confidence shit in January - how can you go top of the league at Christmas and then start thinking "Oh shit I'm scared" .... who thinks like that ? - your top of the league - 5 points clear, and then you completely fuck everything up. Who does that ? - I think it just comes down to the midfield not operating the way it needs to in the games we have drawn/lost, and of course our front men not taking those 50/75 percent chances that they have been getting in games. No team drops this badly in form after being top of the league at Christmas - it just does not add up statistically and has never happened before like this (least I don't think it has).

We were top at Christmas because everyone was playing poorly, several teams had swapped positions at the top. City have won every game since then, 13 league wins in a row. Even when we were in 1st our form was nowhere near good enough to hold them off. Our longest winning run this season is 3 games, and that was back in Sept. We have been mediocre at best for large parts of the season and as the injuries mounted we've run the same core group of players into the ground to the point where the likes of Mané, Robbo Henderson just look shattered but keep playing because we have no viable alternative.

 

[moron]

We were top at Christmas because everyone was playing poorly, several teams had swapped positions at the top. City have won every game since then, 13 league wins in a row. Even when we were in 1st our form was nowhere near good enough to hold them off. Our longest winning run this season is 3 games, and that was back in Sept. We have been mediocre at best for large parts of the season and as the injuries mounted we've run the same core group of players into the ground to the point where the likes of Mané, Robbo Henderson just look shattered but keep playing because we have no viable alternative.

True - but in all this there are issues which I think come down to individual player's attitude and their thinking in these games that have led to inconsistencies. You cannot explain winning against Crystal Palace 7-0 and then playing like shits, and then beating Spurs, and West Ham, then going downhill again and again. At this rate we cannot seem to even draw a game. I know possession stats don't win you games but the amount of that ball we have should at least mean we conjure up at least one goal per game. We cannot even do that these days. It's just so fucking bollox its unreal.