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A passer in midfield 2

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rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member
@dmishra has started a thread about midfield passers a while ago - somehow I missed it at the time, but I want to write down some thoughts and respond to his point that we need to get someone like Xabi or Sahin in midfield to partner Keita. First of all, I have to mention that DLP (deep-lying playmaker) is my favorite position to watch in football, my favorite player of all time is Pirlo and Xabi was not far behind. I’ve been banging the Romeu drum for a while and I also try to follow players in this position throughout Europe, your usual Weigls and Verrattis.

However there are different ways to construct a football team and while the skill of long-range passing and controlling the tempo is as valuable as ever, some managers and some systems take a different route. Nowadays, one of the big tactical trends is playing a midfielder as a CB - Guardiola started this with Mascherano at Barca, then Javi Martinez at Bayern, Pochettino with Dier at Spurs, Klopp did it with Lucas here and Sven Bender at Dortmund, etc. The reason for this is that in a possession-oriented team, the job of a CB has become in many ways similar to the job description of a midfielder - they need to cover a lot of ground (as opposed to CBs in a defensive team like Burnley who barely leave their penalty area), be very comfortable on the ball, good passers (including long-range) and pro-active rather than reactive.

The flip side of this is, if you have 1 or better 2 CBs who can do all that with aplomb, then maybe your actual midfielders can assume a slightly different role, to focus more on “close combat,” short passing and most importantly pressing. You see, an Alonso or a Pirlo kind of handicaps you in this area; they lack mobility, so in a pressing game they need hard working “body-guards” on both sides (as Pirlo had in Gattuso and Ambrosini/Seedorf), because if you only have one such player next to the “passer” the shape is going to be lopsided and you won’t reliably win midfield battles. So one possible idea is to combine the jobs of a DLP and a CB, thus leaving the 2 energetic midfielders to do their hurrying-pressing jobs in front of the defensive line. CBs have a big advantage here - they are the only players who always receive the ball facing forward, so they don’t need to turn and evade pressure before launching the ball - they already have the field of play in front of them and those CBs who are comfortable in their ability on the ball can even carry it forward to roughly the same areas that a DLP would operate.

I’m not saying that’s the only worthwhile idea or that midfield playmakers are obsolete - far from it! Modric and Kroos set the standard at Real, Alonso played at top level until retirement at Bayern, etc etc. However, for those teams who bet their game plan on winning the midfield battle most of the time, work-rate and physicality seem to be the primary requirement for midfielders, while the importance and value of ball-playing CBs continues to increase.

As more teams (even Barca!) are switching to the variations of modernized 4-4-2 (or 4-2-2-2 if you like to be fancy), with clear distinction between the “attacking 4” and “the defensive 6,” I expect the trend towards “defensive CMs” and “offensive CBs” to continue. With this in mind I wouldn’t be surprised if Klopp opts for a midfield partnership like Keita + someone like Ndidi, but buys another CB in Van Dijk mould (like De Vrij) so that whenever the ball comes back to our defenders they can always launch it with precision towards our front 4 players who will either get on the ball immediately or turn on the high press and try to win it near the opposition’s goal. It’s only natural that managers like Guardiola or Klopp - who have if not invented, then perfected the tactic of high press - are constantly thinking about the best way to beat their own creation and bypassing the midfield press by the way of a precise long ball from defense (or even from GK as in Ederson’s case) seems to be the most promising route.
 
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I agree to the point of someone like Guardiola doing it, but we don’t have anywhere near as much possession as his teams and some of the others.
The way we look completely exposed means we need someone protecting the centre backs. We can’t do what Barca did with Mascherano, we need Mascherano doing what he did for us back in the day.
For me, a dedicated DM with a playmaker behind Keita would be perfect. In the Mascherano + Alonso behind Gerrard kind of shape.
For LFC + Klopp, I think it would work wonders.
 
I've mentioned it elsewhere but Banega was superb against United last night; technically brilliant, tough, good tackler and totally set the pace for the midfield controlling the game, maybe he would look great alongside Keita (though we'd have the smallest midfield in the league).

He looks a real Klopp type player too, energetic, great ball & positioning skills and absolutely controls the midfield with excellent, thoughtful, passing. I could definitely see him in our team.
 
For me, a dedicated DM with a playmaker behind Keita would be perfect. In the Mascherano + Alonso behind Gerrard kind of shape.
For LFC + Klopp, I think it would work wonders.

Is Keita = Gerrard in that comparison? Because I don’t think they are a similar type of player.

BTW I’m not at all suggesting that Klopp convert Hendo into into a CB and leave him without adequate midfield protection - that would be a disaster for sure. Midfielders playing at CB are an exception to the rule and I only mentioned it to illustrate how the job of a CB at a top club is different from the rest. Usually top clubs still go for specialist CBs, but ones who are great on the ball: Hummels, Ramos, Alderweireld, VVD, Laporte, Stones etc. And as for midfield, I suggested that we will play with essentially not one, but two DMs, but of roaming rather than “holding” variety.
 
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Watching Leipzig beat Napoli in Euro League Keita was clearly the deepest of the Leipzig midfielders. I am not sure he should be that With us though as he has a lot to offer in a more CM position than a DCM.
 
Is Keita = Gerrard in that comparison? Because I don’t think they are a similar type of player.

BTW I’m not at all suggesting that Klopp convert Hendo into into a CB and leave him without adequate midfield protection - that would be a disaster for sure. Midfielders playing at CB are an exception to the rule and I only mentioned it to illustrate how the job of a CB at a top club is different from the rest. Usually top clubs still go for specialist CBs, but ones who are great on the ball: Hummels, Ramos, Alderweireld, VVD, Laporte, Stones etc. And as for midfield, I suggested that we will play with essentially not one, but two DMs, but of roaming rather than “holding” variety.
I think Keita could be exceptional ahead of two midfielders.
 
I still don't understand why we cannot play the passing game like the good teams do. Last season we had possession nearly all the fucking time against nearly every team. @rurikbird should do some lookup on that. Even when we lost to Spurs away this season - it was like 60-70% possession to us or something while they stayed back for fear or what I don't know. So I don't understand how we have become shit at keeping the ball - the only thing that comes to mind is that its deliberate so that our players don't get too tired with the added responsibility of the gengen press shit.
 
I still don't understand why we cannot play the passing game like the good teams do. Last season we had possession nearly all the fucking time against nearly every team. @rurikbird should do some lookup on that. Even when we lost to Spurs away this season - it was like 60-70% possession to us or something while they stayed back for fear or what I don't know. So I don't understand how we have become shit at keeping the ball - the only thing that comes to mind is that its deliberate so that our players don't get too tired with the added responsibility of the gengen press shit.
Our misplaced passes and lack of movement off the ball once opposition players sit back is not deliberate.
 
I still don't understand why we cannot play the passing game like the good teams do. Last season we had possession nearly all the fucking time against nearly every team. @rurikbird should do some lookup on that. Even when we lost to Spurs away this season - it was like 60-70% possession to us or something while they stayed back for fear or what I don't know. So I don't understand how we have become shit at keeping the ball - the only thing that comes to mind is that its deliberate so that our players don't get too tired with the added responsibility of the gengen press shit.

I would think holding on to the ball for a while is actually the best resting a team can do.
 
It's not like we don't pass the ball these days. Against Huddersfield we had more than 900 passes in the team in a 3-0 win the same night Arsenal had insane 894 passes when loosing to Swans. So passes alone doesn't win you games.
 

A classic Coutinho goal, but as I was watching it I thought that Barcelona massively overpaid for a player who doesn't improve them, at least not at the moment. He isn't even allowed anywhere near the free-kicks because Messi takes everything. If Phil was available again this summer for £142M, would you buy him? I wouldn't.
 
If we do go for the DLP type, then this guy could solve a lot of our problems at once:



Napoli’s holding midfielder Jorginho would be the Merseyside club’s first choice, the problem being that the Brazilian-born Italian international would be the same for just about every elite side in Europe.

26-year-old Jorginho is under contract in Naples until 2020.
Jorginho has made 27 appearances under Maurizio Sarri at the Stadio San Paolo this season and has been an integral part of the club’s push for a first Serie A title in 31 years.

Last week his agent, Joao Santos, talked about his client leaving Napoli this summer:
“He has been there for four years now and feels Neapolitan,” Santos told Italian broadcaster Radio CRC.
“It’s an issue of mentality, it’s a family at Napoli and they all play for each other.
“Right now everyone is concentrated on the Scudetto - an objective they’ve been missing for 30 years.
“I think we’ll discuss a renewal at the end of the season, as it’s not the moment to talk about that, because he still has a long contract."
However, despite being happy at Napoli, Jorginho’s agent has admitted he could be forced to look for a move if Lucas Torreira arrives in the summer from Sampdoria.
“He wants to stay, although we’ll have to see if Napoli agree with that,” Santos added.
“If a player like Torreira arrives from Sampdoria, then that will require an important investment and Jorginho could be sacrificed to make way.
“I think they’d rather sell Jorginho than Amadou Diawara, who is younger.”
 
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Playing a shit team, up 4-1 at half time after a Umititi fuck up gave that team a 1-0 lead after 3 minutes.
Glad to see him look so happy!
He'll score 10-20 goals every year easy ...

[At least we know he can do it on a cold night in stoke!]

[People won't even talk about his goal ... because Messi's first was better!]
 
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Would be a great signing that. Rafa bought him while he was at Napoli didnt he?

Yep, that was Rafa. He has a good taste in CMs, doesn't he?

We reportedly offered £8M for him in 2013 when he played for Verona. Napoli got him for the same price.
 
I have a feeling that if Klopp really decides that this guy is his #1 target for midfield, this can really happen. First the player would need to be convinced – it might be hard to make a Brazilian-Italian to trade South of Italy for North-West of England, but a huge increase in salary could be quite convincing... For all his growing reputation in football world, I don't think he has earned a lot of money for his family yet, compared other players of this caliber. And I think he will see the "family" atmosphere of Liverpool as something closer to what he enjoys in Napoli than, say, Man United – and Klopp's style of football far closer to Sarri-ball as well. Plus if he has any questions about Liverpool, he can always talk to his teammate Pepe Reina or his former manager, certain Rafa Benitez...

Then Napoli will of course demand a huge fee – but like his agent said, they would probably prefer to sell a 26-year-old and invest part of that money in developing the "next Jorginho" like the aforementioned Lucas Torreira, so in theory they should be open to a deal. Jorginho certainly fits Klopp's style and could hugely improve the quality and speed of our midfield passing; and like Keita he is one of these rare "2 in 1" players, who offers plenty of midfield "bite" and work-rate in addition to the glorious vertical passing. My only slight concern in terms of replacing Can would be that he is just not as physically strong to dominate in the same way; but overall I think most experts would place Jorginho in the top 5-7 DMs in the world right now and he would come to a system that suits him.
 
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Interesting that Jorginho is our first choice midfield target. Jorginho is obviously one of the better CMs in Italy, and at age 26 in the prime of his career. He's a very good player, but there's something about him that makes me think he's not suited to England. He's really very slight of build, and doesn't have a very physical style of playing either. If a player is young, I'm not so concerned about him making that adaptation to the English game, but Jorginho will be 27 when he joins, with close to a decade's experience of playing in Italy. Will he adapt to the English game?

Somehow, I get the Veron, Aquilani, Sahin, Mendieta vibe from him.

Otherwise though, he seems like the perfect recipe for our midfield - positionally disciplined, and an intelligent, creative passer from the base of midfield. That's ideal to construct a three man midfield.

Having said that, if our midfield is going to look like this, we'll need to buy another midfielder:

----------------Jorginho
---------Keita----------LCM

You could have Wijnaldum or Milner in that LCM spots, but I'd rather they be squaddies than first-team starters. I also worry that a Jorginho-Keita-Milner/Wijnaldum midfield won't win many physical battles in midfield.

Ultimately, if we've lost both Can and Coutinho, we need to buy to replace both. Jorginho for Can, and another LCM for Coutinho.

The ideal player would be Milinkovic-Savic. A three man midfield of Jorginho--Keita--Milinkovic-Savic would be a really good and well-balanced midfield.
 
Interesting that Jorginho is our first choice midfield target. Jorginho is obviously one of the better CMs in Italy, and at age 26 in the prime of his career. He's a very good player, but there's something about him that makes me think he's not suited to England. He's really very slight of build, and doesn't have a very physical style of playing either. If a player is young, I'm not so concerned about him making that adaptation to the English game, but Jorginho will be 27 when he joins, with close to a decade's experience of playing in Italy. Will he adapt to the English game?

Somehow, I get the Veron, Aquilani, Şahin, Mendieta vibe from him.

Otherwise though, he seems like the perfect recipe for our midfield - positionally disciplined, and an intelligent, creative passer from the base of midfield. That's ideal to construct a three man midfield.

Having said that, if our midfield is going to look like this, we'll need to buy another midfielder:

----------------Jorginho
---------Keita----------LCM

You could have Wijnaldum or Milner in that LCM spots, but I'd rather they be squaddies than first-team starters. I also worry that a Jorginho-Keita-Milner/Wijnaldum midfield won't win many physical battles in midfield.

Ultimately, if we've lost both Can and Coutinho, we need to buy to replace both. Jorginho for Can, and another LCM for Coutinho.

The ideal player would be Milinkovic-Savic. A three man midfield of Jorginho--Keita--Milinkovic-Savic would be a really good and well-balanced midfield.

What's your feeling on Ruben Neves? Has by all accounts has had a great season in the Champsionship, and is only 20. I know it's YouTube clips but he remnds be of Xabi

 
Interesting that Jorginho is our first choice midfield target. Jorginho is obviously one of the better CMs in Italy, and at age 26 in the prime of his career. He's a very good player, but there's something about him that makes me think he's not suited to England. He's really very slight of build, and doesn't have a very physical style of playing either. If a player is young, I'm not so concerned about him making that adaptation to the English game, but Jorginho will be 27 when he joins, with close to a decade's experience of playing in Italy. Will he adapt to the English game?

Somehow, I get the Veron, Aquilani, Şahin, Mendieta vibe from him.

Otherwise though, he seems like the perfect recipe for our midfield - positionally disciplined, and an intelligent, creative passer from the base of midfield. That's ideal to construct a three man midfield.

Having said that, if our midfield is going to look like this, we'll need to buy another midfielder:

----------------Jorginho
---------Keita----------LCM

You could have Wijnaldum or Milner in that LCM spots, but I'd rather they be squaddies than first-team starters. I also worry that a Jorginho-Keita-Milner/Wijnaldum midfield won't win many physical battles in midfield.

Ultimately, if we've lost both Can and Coutinho, we need to buy to replace both. Jorginho for Can, and another LCM for Coutinho.

The ideal player would be Milinkovic-Savic. A three man midfield of Jorginho--Keita--Milinkovic-Savic would be a really good and well-balanced midfield.

From a physical perspective, I'd certainly take M-Sav over Jorginho. The former is massive.

The likes of Kante, Makelele and Mascherano have shown that you don't need to be the tallest to play DM at the very highest level, but you do need to be tough as nails and hard to knock off the ball.

But I'd always prefer a bit of height, mobility and presence, and I don't ever want to see another weakling like Lucas or Joe fucking Allen in our midfield. And with Keita arriving, that's our "midget" quote full, thanks.
 
From a physical perspective, I'd certainly take M-Sav over Jorginho. The former is massive.

The likes of Kante, Makelele and Mascherano have shown that you don't need to be the tallest to play DM at the very highest level, but you do need to be tough as nails and hard to knock off the ball.

But I'd always prefer a bit of height, mobility and presence, and I don't ever want to see another weakling like Lucas or Joe fucking Allen in our midfield. And with Keita arriving, that's our "midget" quote full, thanks.
Time to reprise the best physique for a holding midfielder debate?
 
I agree with Brendan on this. If we're losing Can we don't have the option of going for a small or lightweight midfielder as his replacement. We need a large to Keita's little.
 
Jorginho is 5"11, so he's far from small. Whether or not he's suited to play in our midfield in the PL is up to our scouts and Klopp, but I struggle to see a comparison with Veron and Aquilani when tackling and interceptions are his strenghts. That was not their game at all.

M-Savic would be boss but we're talking 80-90 mill £ there. Its also easy to forget Gruijc, who I have high hopes for.
He has had a very positive development for Cardiff. Might see him take a step up this summer.

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/244779/Show/Marko-Grujic
 
I like Jorginho, think he'd be boss actually.

Weigl would be my choice though as I think he's better defensively, as well as being very comfortable in possession.
 
I like Jorginho, think he'd be boss actually.

Weigl would be my choice though as I think he's better defensively, as well as being very comfortable in possession.
Man City bound if reports are to be believed.
Guardiola is a big fan apparently
 
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