Faboutho

[Modo]

Fabinho has been fantastic for us for several seasons. Is that it? We've decided on the back of a period in which half the team has been jaded that he wants booting out? I don't get it.

Yeah, we seem a bit trigger happy lately but I'd still sell if the fee is big enough. I mean if we can get a younger player with the same type of skill set, then why not?
Like I said, I'd like us to find one first and I'm not in a hurry.
I'd rather we sign a decent CM first.

 

[mwake]

Surely this is World Cup silly story time..? As others have said why would we sell one of our best DMs when we are in need of adding other Mid/DM to push this team to the next level?

 

[Fabio]

For me, if we don't have the funds to start a midfield rebuild; sell. Rely on badger in a couple of years as backup.

We've stagnated this season, and we need the overhaul desperately

 

[keniget]

Fernandinho played for City until he was 37. I dont see an issue with Fabinho being 32 in our midfield. It depends on who we bring in and the set up of the other players.

I don't think Fernandinho is a comparable player. They're playing styles and attributes are different.

 

[Squiggles]

It's hard to say without knowing what funds are available and how much we're tying up in the pursuit of Bellingham (if any). In better circumstances, I wouldn't be against selling him and replacing. I'm not sure what has happened, but he looks shot to me. Our whole system hinges on a DM covering large areas of space and having the pace to make up ground. I've seen enough of him this year to have some very real concerns that he's not capable of doing this anymore. I'd back us to find another DM for £50m that's better than what he is currently offering. Carrying players who can no longer fulfil their role got us into this problem to begin with, so us being proactive in the market would be a welcome sight. You can say it adds to the disruption this summer, but if we're smart about it we can come out stronger

 

[keniget]

Yeah, we seem a bit trigger happy lately but I'd still sell if the fee is big enough. I mean if we can get a younger player with the same type of skill set, then why not?

Depends what you're aiming for. If it's to try and eek out another title bid / couple trophies whilst we still have the likes of Alisson, VVD and Salah on the books... well, that's the why not.

If we're willing to accept a full rebuild with a transition period that means we're fighting for top 4 (and potentially missing out) instead of the title, then yeah... why not.

 

[Frogfish]

I don't think Fernandinho is a comparable player. They're playing styles and attributes are different.

Then how about ... Milner !

 

[Frogfish]

Depends what you're aiming for. If it's to try and eek out another title bid / couple trophies whilst we still have the likes of Alisson, VVD and Salah on the books... well, that's the why not.

If we're willing to accept a full rebuild with a transition period that means we're fighting for top 4 (and potentially missing out) instead of the title, then yeah... why not.

Players like Mo, VvD and Ali are generational talents. That they are all playing in the same team is incredible. And with Klopp as their manager too. We should be doing everything we can to give them the platform to succeed (FU FSG) because, despite the bollocks some people are coming out with on here regarding them being 30 yr olds, they are still going to deliver for the next 2-3 seasons and with the right support we'll be able to reap the benefit. The time for a major rebuild comes later (this does not exclude churn to improve the team at this moment).

 

[Farkmaster]

It is absolutely crucial that we get rid of the two completely fucking useless players we have in our midfield, at whatever cost, before we even talk about anything else.

Rip the plaster off.

 

[Donavan Ried]

Seems like a good deal for everyone that.

Tyler Morton and Badger Tits.

It's go time!

Saw somewhere that Morton was wanted by Borussia Dortmund... Maybe a make weight in the effort to sign Bellingham..

 

[peekay]

We’re getting nothing for Naby & Ox - just funds in the wage budget.

Nat & Gomez combined would likely bring in enough to just about cover a CB to replace them - who’d be as good and would likely have to be homegrown.

We’ll get next to fuck all for Thiago as well.

That would be 5 players out of our squad of 25 needing replaced and we’d likely get a total of £50m combined for those we’re selling.

Are we hundred percent sure Naby ain't getting a contract extension? Every bit of news on this is that LFC want to extend and his side doesn't.

Once Naby and his agent realize that no other club will be mental enough to offer the wages we do given his injury record, every chance they come back to the table and sign what is being offered.

 

[Modo]

Depends what you're aiming for. If it's to try and eek out another title bid / couple trophies whilst we still have the likes of Alisson, VVD and Salah on the books... well, that's the why not.

If we're willing to accept a full rebuild with a transition period that means we're fighting for top 4 (and potentially missing out) instead of the title, then yeah... why not.

true

 

[darkstarexodus]

It is absolutely crucial that we get rid of the two completely fucking useless players we have in our midfield, at whatever cost, before we even talk about anything else.

Rip the plaster off.

Which two are those? Feel like it depends on who you ask. Names in an envelope please

 

[RedStar]

Depends what you're aiming for. If it's to try and eek out another title bid / couple trophies whilst we still have the likes of Alisson, VVD and Salah on the books... well, that's the why not.

If we're willing to accept a full rebuild with a transition period that means we're fighting for top 4 (and potentially missing out) instead of the title, then yeah... why not.

Reality is we are already in that phase of the teams cycle. This side is at best top 4 and given the age profile I don't expect a sudden upturn in form next season. We will not be title contenders again without a rebuild, that was the argument 2 seasons ago. Klopp doubled down on the core of his squad and let the team grow old while still being very successful, but it's a law of diminishing returns.

 

[Gary25]

Are we hundred percent sure Naby ain't getting a contract extension? Every bit of news on this is that LFC want to extend and his side doesn't.

Once Naby and his agent realize that no other club will be mental enough to offer the wages we do given his injury record, every chance they come back to the table and sign what is being offered.

I cannot in a million years fathom why we offered that useless shitbag a new contract? Protect his value some might say - what value? He's fucking crap and made of biscuits.

 

[tombrown]

He's fucking crap and made of biscuits.

Nabisco Keita

 

[jan]

Which two are those? Feel like it depends on who you ask. Names in an envelope please

They both have shit nicknames and they're both dead

 

[darkstarexodus]

They both have shit nicknames and they're both dead

That describes at least 4 midfielders at our club.

 

[peekay]

I cannot in a million years fathom why we offered that useless shitbag a new contract? Protect his value some might say - what value? He's fucking crap and made of biscuits.

Neither can I. But every bit of news associated with Keita in the summer was how we wanted to offer him a new contract.

 

[StevieM]

The problem is that this is not how top teams operate.

They continually strengthen and then cut the fat as and when players want to leave or they feel they can make a decent profit on someone they don't need.

They don't sell first team players from an already pretty lean squad to fund a replacements on a 1-1 basis. You want to minimize disruption.

We haven't strengthened when we should've and we're now seeing a lot of disruption that will likely continue for a while. We also hold onto players for far too long (why the fuck has Phillips been kept here this season?).

Now you can argue perhaps that we're not a top club and / or that we are where we are so we have to make compromises... question is how and where.

Naby, Ox, Adrian, Milner and potentially Firmino are done at the end of the season.

That leaves us with:

GK: Alisson, Kelleher
CB: VVD, Konate, Matip, Gomez, Phillips
FB: TAA, Robertson, Tsimikas, Ramsay
CM: Henderson, Fabinho, Thiago, Jones, Elliot
FW: Salah, Nunez, Jota, Diaz, Carvalhlo,

The squad is lean as fuck. If our strategy is to sell off first team players to fund purchases whilst also bedding in players like Elliot, Carvalho and Ramsay and replacements for Henderson and Matip likely required in the near future, then it doesn't quite make sense to go for mega expensive players like Caceido. We might as well concede that we're in a Dortmund style position and look for a couple of projects.

Which is true - except it’s not how we built the squad in the first place.

In an ideal world, we keep Fabs and buy replacements for Naby, Milner & Ox - but we need money for that and the owners just aren’t going to fund it out of their own pocket.

Net spend of £30m or so a season - that’s consistent and there’s no reason to suspend t it’ll change - it might go up one season but is likely to be followed by a “I’m happy with my squad” season.

It can be offset by a couple of promising youngsters stepping up - otherwise we’re left with freebies and bargains - otherwise we need to sell someone or the reality will not match the dream.

We should have sold Naby 2 seasons ago - Ox has never been fit long enough to sell.

I’ve argued before we should have considered selling Matip at the start of this season - he’s another good player we’ll get nothing for.

Bobby (even if he signs an extension), Thiago, Matip, Hendo are all past their sell by date - no-one will pay a big fee for Mo.

The retained core would be Konate, Elliot, Carvalho, Jotta, Diaz, Nunez, Ramsey and the various fringe youths.

Not only would I be asking questions about Fabs - there are questions about Alisson/Kelleher, Van Dijk, Gomez, Trent, Robbo /Tsimikas and Jones that should be asked as well.

I’m not saying say all or even any of them - but they are sellable assets that would provide funds to strengthen the team. (And likely weaken it short term as well).

You can’t have a conversation about major squad re-building while retaining 90% of the squad.

 

[Frogfish]

Reality is we are already in that phase of the teams cycle. This side is at best top 4 and given the age profile I don't expect a sudden upturn in form next season. We will not be title contenders again without a rebuild, that was the argument 2 seasons ago. Klopp doubled down on the core of his squad and let the team grow old while still being very successful, but it's a law of diminishing returns.

Define rebuild. The core is still more than capable of winning the PL and/or CL within the next 2 seasons : Ali, VvD, Konate, Robbo, Thiago, Fabinho (assuming return to form which I don't doubt), +2 midfielders, Diaz, Nunez, Jota, Salah. That is a fantastic core squad - just needs 2 or 3 top quality players to bulk it up (and to sort out the tactics to protect TAA).

 

[bluebell]

Which is true - except it’s not how we built the squad in the first place.

In an ideal world, we keep Fabs and buy replacements for Naby, Milner & Ox - but we need money for that and the owners just aren’t going to fund it out of their own pocket.

Net spend of £30m or so a season - that’s consistent and there’s no reason to suspend t it’ll change - it might go up one season but is likely to be followed by a “I’m happy with my squad” season.

It can be offset by a couple of promising youngsters stepping up - otherwise we’re left with freebies and bargains - otherwise we need to sell someone or the reality will not match the dream.

We should have sold Naby 2 seasons ago - Ox has never been fit long enough to sell.

I’ve argued before we should have considered selling Matip at the start of this season - he’s another good player we’ll get nothing for.

Bobby (even if he signs an extension), Thiago, Matip, Hendo are all past their sell by date - no-one will pay a big fee for Mo.

The retained core would be Konate, Elliot, Carvalho, Jotta, Diaz, Nunez, Ramsey and the various fringe youths.

Not only would I be asking questions about Fabs - there are questions about Alisson/Kelleher, Van Dijk, Gomez, Trent, Robbo /Tsimikas and Jones that should be asked as well.

I’m not saying say all or even any of them - but they are sellable assets that would provide funds to strengthen the team. (And likely weaken it short term as well).

You can’t have a conversation about major squad re-building while retaining 90% of the squad.

The club allows players to wind their contracts down, its financial madness when you're model is a self sustaining club. The Welsh Xavi went for free, Can, Wini, Divock walked out for free, and now Naby, ox and possibly Bobby will walk for free, I think Mini went well below market value and leaving Mane's trill the last 12 months means we were lucky to get £30m
That's some poor shit transfer dealings

 

[StevieM]

Define rebuild. The core is still more than capable of winning the PL and/or CL within the next 2 seasons : Ali, VvD, Konate, Robbo, Thiago, Fabinho (assuming return to form which I don't doubt), +2 midfielders, Diaz, Nunez, Jota, Salah. That is a fantastic core squad - just needs 2 or 3 top quality players to bulk it up (and to sort out the tactics to protect TAA).

It is, but it’s also mostly an old core with many of them needing replacing in not much more than 2 years, while at the same time not returning any on sale value.

I guess that’s why we need investment or new owners - because our current owners aren’t going to fund it.

A £250m net splurge on 5 or 6 quality players over a few seasons + assorted youngsters and City can go fuck themselves.

 

[keniget]

Which is true - except it’s not how we built the squad in the first place.

True, but we've moved on since then... kinda.

The club, at that point in time, would not have been able to hold onto a player like Salah and would not have committed to big contracts like it has.

The problem (which you're highlighting) is that as a club we're caught between behaving like a "big club" and operating like a smaller one. So we've retained our big stars and bought no-one... wonderful!

In an ideal world, we keep Fabs and buy replacements for Naby, Milner & Ox - but we need money for that and the owners just aren’t going to fund it out of their own pocket.

Net spend of £30m or so a season - that’s consistent and there’s no reason to suspend t it’ll change - it might go up one season but is likely to be followed by a “I’m happy with my squad” season.

It can be offset by a couple of promising youngsters stepping up - otherwise we’re left with freebies and bargains - otherwise we need to sell someone or the reality will not match the dream.

We should have sold Naby 2 seasons ago - Ox has never been fit long enough to sell.

I’ve argued before we should have considered selling Matip at the start of this season - he’s another good player we’ll get nothing for.

Bobby (even if he signs an extension), Thiago, Matip, Hendo are all past their sell by date - no-one will pay a big fee for Mo.

The retained core would be Konate, Elliot, Carvalho, Jotta, Diaz, Nunez, Ramsey and the various fringe youths.

Not only would I be asking questions about Fabs - there are questions about Alisson/Kelleher, Van Dijk, Gomez, Trent, Robbo /Tsimikas and Jones that should be asked as well.

I’m not saying say all or even any of them - but they are sellable assets that would provide funds to strengthen the team. (And likely weaken it short term as well).

You can’t have a conversation about major squad re-building while retaining 90% of the squad.

I agree with all the coulda, woulda, shoulda stuff - I've been saying it for years now.

I'm just less convinced where we go from here now that all the mistakes have been made.

If we needed to raise money, I'd probably start with players that will likely want moves soon anyways - Kelleher, Phillips. Henderson and Matip are candidates to get off the wage bill, yup.

The reality is that whether we sell Fabinho or not, we need a few Robertson, Mane and Salah type wins in the market.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Fuck me. One of our best players over the last few years has a poor start to the season after a mammoth effort last year with fuck all rest and a tonne of games squeezed in with a WC on the horizon.

50m - Fuck off.
He’s going to be instrumental in our climb to third, winning the CL and defending the FA Cup.

Cunts!

 

[Frogfish]

It is, but it’s also mostly an old core with many of them needing replacing in not much more than 2 years, while at the same time not returning any on sale value.

I guess that’s why we need investment or new owners - because our current owners aren’t going to fund it.

A £250m net splurge on 5 or 6 quality players over a few seasons + assorted youngsters and City can go fuck themselves.

Well it comes down to this : go for it now with 2-3 top quality players or a total rebuild of the whole team and pray that it's good enough to challenge for CL/PL honours.

Personally I believe we have to wring this team dry because there are no guarantees that the next iteration will even be good enough for Top 4, so I don't see the point in selling off any players that do retain any sort of value on if, buts and maybes for the next iteration. Why even do that (sell off the crown jewels) when we have most of the parts of the puzzle already? Klopp won't be around for too much longer (though if he decides to stay through the eventual transition then great) !

I also don't believe that 'many need replacing within 2 years' as many on SCM seem to. Ali/VvD/Mo can easily go another 3-4 years at least. Lewandowski is 34, Messi 35 ... Mo is at least as fit as them if not better. No issues of course for the next 3-4 years with Kelleher (assuming we can persuade him to stay - he's worth a big pay increase), Robbo, Tsimikas, Trent, Diaz, Nunez, Jota, Elliott, Carvalho, Bajcetic, Ramsay, Jones, Doak & Philips (assuming we decide to keep them all). In fact you can already see the transition happening with the influx of younger players that need mature, experienced, players around them.

Assuming no-one else comes through the Academy, I can only see a need for a midfielder in January and then replacing Milner & Keita next Summer. Thiago, Hendo & Firmino in 2024. Decisions for Matip & Gomez to be made but as they'll be CBs 3 & 4 they aren't as urgent and can be replaced by younger players to be integrated a la Konate. This seems eminently doable whilst continuing to challenge at the top end of the table and in the CL.

 

[bluebell]

Fuck me. One of our best players over the last few years has a poor start to the season after a mammoth effort last year with fuck all rest and a tonne of games squeezed in with a WC on the horizon.

50m - Fuck off.
He’s going to be instrumental in our climb to third, winning the CL and defending the FA Cup.

Cunts!

We're only winning the Carabao Cup now guys, and finish outside the top 4. He has doomed us!

 

[mark1975]

It's tough when someone offers decent money for a player who's probably past his best, but might still have a year or two in him. I kinda get Stevie's argument about we can't have it both ways. Well we can.

The issue isn't really that we should have sold players, it's that we should have identified and coughed up the money for the players who would eventually replace those players. Ideally you bring in an understudy now who will get a fair amount of football and eventually take Fabinho's place a year or two down the line, where we also have the benefit of two players of real quality to call upon for the same kind of role.

The issue we have is a financial blueprint that just doesn't allow for that on a grand scale. Elliott and Carvalho are a start at replacing a few players, but it's not enough and even they were just shrewd, low cost punts. When it comes to key players who make up your spine, you have to spend relatively well (and big). And that doesn't mean being clever in getting players like Thiago and Konate in, which many on the face of it would label a bargain, if the bargain side of the deal wasn't based on a questionable injury record.

That's the issue. We're either forced to pay low fees for maybe's, or go for reduced cost, risk buys who will probably inevitably break sooner or later. Rinse and repeat.

Get the young Bajcetic alongside him more, or buy, but don't let him play beyond his timescale or turn down silly money when the time is right. Hansern will inevitably air on the side of optimistic, but he's partly right. Many would have sold Mane and Salah earlier, when both then went on to prove people wrong, but then the £100m+ that people previously offered won't come around again. It's a difficult thing to call and judge.

 

[Modo]

Yes let's sell Trent for £200 mill. Announce it to the world too.
"Alexander-Arnold to Real Madrid for £200 mill"

Then go to Dortmund and ask them for Bellers II.

- How much do you guys want for Bellingham?

 

[StevieM]

Are we hundred percent sure Naby ain't getting a contract extension? Every bit of news on this is that LFC want to extend and his side doesn't.

Once Naby and his agent realize that no other club will be mental enough to offer the wages we do given his injury record, every chance they come back to the table and sign what is being offered.

I can’t see how he gets an extension based on him being injured all season.

At the very least, if they were offering him new terms, I’d like to think they were on severely reduced terms - like you don’t get paid unless you’re fit.