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Brizzle

Brizzle

Forum legend. Chief Superstition Officer. Slot Out
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This has possibly been discussed in lots of pockets. But worthy of discussion (and a key part of the argument many were and are making about 200m on two strikers vs investing in the defence)

Look at our back 5/6 from 2019/20 and the classic Klopp era, then look into next season, and we haven’t successfully transitioned a single one of these.


Goalkeeper
19/20 - Alisson with Kelleher as back up
25/26 - Ali with Marmadashvili

Kelleher IMO has two traits better than Ali. Ball with his feet and penalties. Marmadash is absolutely awful with the ball. Possibly a better shot stopper. I don’t think a single team in the league uses their GK in build up as much as we do. I’m unconvinced in this keeper “upgrade”

Left back
19/20 - Robbo with Gomez/ Milner back up
25/26 - Kerkez with Robbo back up

This signing yet to look correct. Kerkez is young and showed himself very capable at Bournemouth but not working here yet. Robbo can’t play twice in a week.

Left CB
19/20 - Virgil with Gomez/Lovren back up
25/26 - Virgil with Gomez back up

We’re currently seeing the worst version of VVD to have worn the Liverpool shirt. No signs of succession planning. We’re playing him every game and running him into the ground.

Right CB
19/20 - Matip with Lovren / Gomez back up
25/26 - Konate with Leoni / Gomez back up

Konate did good for spells here, but he’s injury prone and now has decided he’s off so looking to next season we have no options (and we have a young CB who may never fully recover from an ACL)

Right back

19/20 - Trent with Gomez back up
25/26 - Bradley or Frimpong

Two players having their first stab at playing regularly in the PL and both have already had injuries suggesting their bodies can’t handle it. Too soon to call it a failure, but the lack of support from RW means anyone in this position is going to be exposed. The 19/20 Trent had Fabinho & Hendo.


This statement isn’t meant to be offensive, just fact, given the highs. But the current versions of Alisson, Robbo, Virgil and Gomez are the wirst versions of each we have had in the squad.

This is obvious, and it’s understandable. 6 seasons of relying on the same players, and they now play in a system where they have less protection in front of them. I’m not even sure that peak back 5 would stand up to the waves of attacks we currently give away.

This can’t be solved until the summer. This is why i think many people feel we missed an opportunity. We may never have 400m to spend again. We needed critically to upgrade our defence & keep iterating.

This also means we can’t even write just this season off as a transition, because next season will have to be one too as we need two new starting quality CBs minimum next season.
 
Where we have got things right in the most part is the midfield but somehow ended up with three top quality 8s but not master in the 6. A position many of us wanted addressing in the summer.

LW we have done okay, but neither Gakpo or Diaz are/were special in the Mane sense. RW has been well covered across multiple threads.

Up top is a fuck up. We went from Origi and Firmino to only Jota being able to have real quality. So far, Ekitike has shown something about him but the others are all meh to shit.
 
My problem with midfield is that we’ve effectively gone from 3 to 2 midfielders.

Szobo’s move in the team has been an issue, because as AM he did it all. He led our press, he was part of every counter attack and he was always defending.

Unlike Wirtz at 10, but he needs 3 CM/DMs behind him for that to work. We need more because Macca was fatigued, Gravy got injured after being overplayed, Endo isn’t trusted and Jones is inconsistent.
 
If you are going to do that, go show Robbo from last season. He was zombified and was practically gifting them a goal a game.

He can’t play twice a week so there was no way he was starting yesterday. That means Kerkez was starting. Who could actually do with doing a Robbo in that having 2 months out of the squad to work on his game before coming in. Then again, that would mean showing the transfer dickheads had made a mistake.
 
MomoWASright said:
If you are going to do that, go show Robbo from last season. He was zombified and was practically gifting them a goal a game.

He can’t play twice a week so there was no way he was starting yesterday. That means Kerkez was starting. Who could actually do with doing a Robbo in that having 2 months out of the squad to work on his game before coming in. Then again, that would mean showing the transfer dickheads had made a mistake.
Click to expand...
My point isn't to show that 31 year old Robertson is better than Kerkez, it's to show that Robertson is a different type of left back with a different skill set, more suited to the style Arne wants to play.
 
So you show one example of Kerkez where the ball comes to his weaker foot and, because he doesn't feel comfortable using it, he has to swivel to clear with his left and two of Robbo where the ball is on his left foot and he has time to pick out a pass.

Don't get me wrong, they were both brilliant assists, but you're not comparing like for like
 
tombrown said:
So you show one example of Kerkez where the ball comes to his weaker foot and, because he doesn't feel comfortable using it, he has to swivel to clear with his left and two of Robbo where the ball is on his left foot and he has time to pick out a pass.

Don't get me wrong, they were both brilliant assists, but you're not comparing like for like
Click to expand...
I honestly couldn't find any other clips of his passing but it was pretty evident last night that he doesn't have Robbo's passing range.
 
Modo said:
My point isn't to show that 31 year old Robertson is better than Kerkez, it's to show that Robertson is a different type of left back with a different skill set, more suited to the style Arne wants to play.
Click to expand...

Did Robbo look suited to you last season in whatever style this is? Let’s not pretend he wasn’t one of the weak links.
 
Kerkez is not dissimilar to Robbo. Difference is, kerkez is trying to impress his new teammates and new fans so making rash decisions, whereas Robbo is a dressing room leader.

Kerkez will be fine. He just needs to be allowed to play his own game, which slot won't let him because Salah needs Bradley/frimpong to do everything on the right side, so kerkez can't do his game on the left as the balance is off.

Realistically we should have got a CB/lb hybrid to drift in to that position, or curtail gravs bombing on so he could drop between the CBS when we have the ball.
 
All of these concerns were raised in the summer.

Buy kerkez, get a defensively solid RB. Buy 2 attacking full backs, buy a 6 who drops deep.

We've focused on the data, and that makes sense. But we've not tried to build a squad
 
Firstly the players :

Marmadashvili is better for me vs Kelleher. I've a lot of confidence in him and he isn't at all awful with the ball at his feet. Quite the contrary he has come across as very calm and his distribution has not been an issue. I've never seen him get into an 'Ali tangle' with a striker and it's not as if Ali doesn't ever put the ball out of play when kicking. Some Rose-tited specs there.
Would Kelleher have made those two magnificent saves from Mama vs Brentford? I doubt it, those were fingertips from a player much taller.

I also don't think that he made an error of judgement in the 1 vs 1 because Konate was on the attacker for a while before giving up. Maybe he could have narrowed it a metre and that may have made the difference but still he got legs on the ball and it was a little unlucky to go through him. Don't say you've never seen that happen to Ali (and Kelleher is far worse at 1 vs 1 as he's not as imposing). Still, it's a sample size of one.

Kerkez. Yes he needs to get up to speed but I'm not sure what his instructions are supposed to be. He looks much better going forward than in defence. I wasn't worried about him at all - I am now. Robbo clearly isn't the answer as last year's version told us. So is this version of Kerkez better or worse than last season's Robbo? Whatever the answer to that is we need to persist with Kerkez because the ceiling is higher.

VvD - he's made some uncharacteristic errors however I wonder how much of that is down to the lack of stability in the team/overall defensive setup. He's still as dominant in most areas, heading, 1 on 1 etc, pace. I have no worries there. There isn't a CB that has ever lived that is/was not going to get beat on occasion.

Konate - the usual inconsistencies but still a quality CB. Gomez is fine as backup. We are going to miss not having Leoni to give both VvD and Konate more rest. Gomez will have to be used more.

Bradley (I don't see Frimpong as our starting RB) - he is a better defender than TAA by a mile so is in no way a contribution to a weaker defence than last season. Our defence should in fact have strengthened but lost a little in attack (however judging by the number of goals we are scoring that isn't much of an issue) !

The main issue for me isn't the change in personnel along the Back 5 it's the lack of protection from the midfield and flanks.

We can't complain about not having a 6, Gravy was best in the PL last season, however this season it seems he is being asked to push forward, maybe we are supposed to be playing a double pivot but the communication isn't there and it's leaving gaps in front of the defence which means a lack of compactness when attacked at pace on the break or when we lose possession in midfield.
The greatest issue in that regard is Macca's inexplicable lack of form. I think Jones has done well when he's come in but he's not a natural 6 and often pushes forward as Gravy has been doing. This surely is down to instruction/coaching and increases our exposure. Slot needs to reassess.

I don't worry about the attack and anyone pointing fingers at the forwards needs to go check the scoring charts - in the PL we have 16, one behind top scorers Man City (17) and level with Arsenal - in fact we should be miles ahead in that regard with the amount of chances we've missed!

However whilst Arsenal have conceded just 3 goals we've conceded 14 !!! As well as the midfield protection issue it seems to me that Salah is even worse than last season at tracking back, we're effectively playing a man short when defending the right which in turn stretches the midfield and defence leaving gaps. Gakpo isn't anywhere near as good as Diaz was on the other flank which means we have reduced protection from both flanks and in midfield.
 
It's hard to really provide definitive judgements on some players as we've been awful all over the pitch all season but...

Marma - all I know is that I can't wait for Alisson to come back. That probably says more about Alisson (who is practically superhuman) than it does about Marma but I do think actually seeing him play for us puts paid to the idea that we can simply let Alisson swan off to Brazil when his contracts up (like some people were suggesting last year). It's early days for Marma but he looks okay, hasn't dropped any massive clangers but also hasn't announced himself as an Alisson replacement either. Not as confident coming out and commanding his area, 'ok' with his feet but no more and a decent shot stopper - hopefully will improve over time.

Kerkez - I really wanted to like him and I really want to buy into the "he'll be okay" stance that most seem to have adopted but let's just call a spade a spade here, he's been really shit so far and has got a long way to go to be "okay" let alone a good replacement for prime Robbo.

VVD - yes, the defence is a shit show as is the rest of the team, and yes, he's older but he needs to take more responsibility. He's a little too blamey when he's making fuck ups.

Konate - a big fan as he's brilliant when he's on top form (which he has been for long stretches of his time here) but yeah, he's been very inconsistent this year and next he'll be gone anyways so not worth talking about.

Bradley - I know he's a board favourite, but never rated him as a starter and still don't. He's a classic good squad player and it's fine to have players like that starting when the rest of the team is great, less so when it's not. Perhaps not the first problem to solve but ideally we'd have a better player.

Frimpong - looks like a complete waste of money.

We started the summer needing two fullbacks and a centre-back. It doesn't feel like a great deal has changed to be honest. Hopefully Kerkez does end up settling and we see some value from Frimpong when he decides to stop getting injured.
 
keniget said:
It's hard to really provide definitive judgements on some players as we've been awful all over the pitch all season but...

Marma - all I know is that I can't wait for Alisson to come back. That probably says more about Alisson (who is practically superhuman) than it does about Marma but I do think actually seeing him play for us puts paid to the idea that we can simply let Alisson swan off to Brazil when his contracts up (like some people were suggesting last year). It's early days for Marma but he looks okay, hasn't dropped any massive clangers but also announced himself as an Alisson replacement either. Not as confident coming out and commanding his area, 'ok' with his feet but no more and a decent shot stopper - hopefully will improve over time.

Kerkez - I really wanted to like him and I really want to buy into the "he'll be okay" stance that most seem to have adopted but let's just call a spade a spade here, he's been really shit so far and has got a long way to go to be "okay" let alone a good replacement for prime Robbo.

VVD - yes, the defence is a shit show as is the rest of the team, and yes, he's older but he needs to take more responsibility. He's a little too blamey when he's making fuck ups.

Konate - a big fan as he's brilliant when he's on top form (which he has been for long stretches of his time here) but yeah, he's been very inconsistent this year and next he'll be gone anyways so not worth talking about.

Bradley - I know he's a board favourite, but never rated him as a starter and still don't. He's a classic good squad player and it's fine to have players like that starting when the rest of the team is great, less so when it's not. Perhaps not the first problem to solve but ideally we'd have a better player.

Frimpong - looks like a complete waste of money.

We started the summer needing two fullbacks and a centre-back. It doesn't feel like a great deal has changed to be honest. Hopefully Kerkez does end up settling and we see some value from Frimpong when he decides to stop getting injured.
Click to expand...

Broadly agree. It is that final point which is the crux of this whole problem. And let's see if we will have any freedom to spend where we need to. We got kinda lucky with the 19/20 back 5 that Trent was free, Matip was free, Gomez was cheap thru academy, Robbo was a bargain. We spent big on one person.

We are already spending reasonable amounts on the likes of Marma, Frimpong & Kerkez and in the current line up they are all questionable. Maybe with refreshed CBs and leadership (and better protection ahead) they will all work out excellently. But there isn't a single banker in the line up for me.
 
I don't think Frimpong is that bad is he? I haven't seen enough to know, but going forward he's better than Salah. That's a low bar right now but whatever. I think Kerkez is putting too much pressure on himself and if that's the issue it will resolve with time. But yeah the two CBs and the keeper moving on are a real problem.
 
IMG-20251027-095225.jpg


@peekay

two-spike.gif
 
In the past few games, he has been involved in giving away the sitations we have then gone on to concede from.

Palace's throw-in that led to the winner - Marma not being able to clear the ball
Brentford's throw-in that led to that goal - Marma not being able to clear the ball

He also just seems waste the possession we do have too. I know we're comparing him to a great. But I feel he just hasn't gelled with anyone around him, his ability to put himself in the right position to receive a pass from a defender isn't good and he should be adept and clearing it to the halfway line in any circumstance. He's just as left footed as Kerkez & Mo and that is an issue too.

I think his shot stopping looks excellent - but a team title challenging doesn't need that skill as #1 IMO. We need to change the way the team plays with the ball as its harder to beat a high press when you can't use your GK in the build up like the team is used to with Ali and was also used to with Kelleher.
 
I was a huge proponent of getting Kerkez but it's not working out at the moment. Long term it might still, but Robbo should be getting a he majority of the starts right now. Allow Kerkez time on the training pitch to adjust and get out of the spotlight.

Not sure how I feel about Marma yet. Not as confident as I was with Kelleher over the past couple years, but we're hanging our keeper and backline out to dry right now, so maybe not a fair comparison.

Bradley needs to be instructed to overlap rather than underlap. We're getting hit down the flanks and we often look very narrow in attack. Not sure if he's the long term solution but we're not playing him right.

Frimpong, if he'll ever be healthy, should get more time in Mo's role and sub off Bradley as needed.

Virgil and Konate aren't looking as sharp as normal but they're victims of how open we are.
 
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