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Henderson as DM and captain

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dmishra

dmishra

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Now I’m unfortunately going to sound a lot like Modo in this thread, but this is something Klopp needs to seriously think about.

Since his arrival, Henderson has been first-choice DM / holding mid, and Can has played in a variety of positions.

When Henderson has been available, Can has either played as one of the two more advanced CMs in the 4-3-3, or occasionally in defence.

When Henderson’s absent however, Klopp goes with Can at DM / holding mid. I’ve made this point several times before, but we’re just a far better side when Henderson is absent and Can is playing
DM.

Let’s look at some basic evidence.

2015/16

Henderson missed 15 games from September-November through injury. Can ended up as DM in a majority of those games. We lost just 1 of those 15 games.

He then missed 11 games through injury again from April-May. Can came in at DM again, and played probably the best football of his LFC career as we went on that Europa League run, beating Dortmund and Villareal. 2 defeats in those 11 games.

2016/17

Henderson missed 13 games. Can came into that DM role. We took 27 points from 13 games to secure 4th place.

Also, let’s look at our worst defensive performances under Klopp (conceding 3 goals or more).

That’s happened 14 times in Klopp’s reign. Henderson has started at DM in 10 of those 14 games. Can has been DM in two of those games.

I know our defensive blues are largely attributable to our horrendous defenders. But this record from our DM / holding mid is totally unacceptable. The DM is the one who needs to take responsibility and stem the flow when the side is under a lot of attacking pressure. Henderson is utterly inept at this. He’s proven this time and again.

Henderson’s best position is as an attacking CM in a 4-3-3, the kind of role he played in the 13-14 season, which was the best football he’s played for Liverpool. If his injuries have rendered him incapable of playing that role, then we need to stop shoehorning him into the midfield just because he’s captain. He’s not a good DM. In fact, he’s a terrible one. If we need to strip of him captaincy to get him away from that position, then so be it.
 
The one touch passing by our forwards when there is no space, is a joy to watch.

Hendo's close ball control and passing is for his position is appalling. Always needing an extra touch slows us down. Him being captain compounds the misery.
 
We don't have any obvious replacements as Captain. Milner is the only one, but he isn't a regular starter.

That says it all, really.
 
Be careful @dmishra - half the forum think that all Can does is 'look at his reflection in his boots'

I'd start him at DM over Hendo. I'd like to see Hendo further forward but his injuries just don't allow that properly.
 
Id start fucking lucas at dm over henderson. He atleast applied himself at the role and could complete more than 1 in 2 of his sidways passes

He was embarassingly bad against Seville and any half decent side just completely bypasses him, he offers the backline little/no protection. Can atleast offers anticipation/ Milner a calming influence

Henderson is literally captain average, hes not a bad player, he just rotates performances between 5/10,6/10 & 7/10 - hes played at that level bar a handful of apperances over the past 12 months. His workrate no longer offers him shelter as that is expected of everyone in a klopp side and quite frankly runnng distance is a shite stat when the required complimentary attributes are massivly lacking.
 
At the time he was made captain, i was fully supportive. You could always see him being the leader on the pitch - he was constantly directing the likes of Sterling and Can around the pitch. He would dictate play and was a very good player for us. He's lost that a lot, partly due to being kept limited in a holding role.
 
manwithnoname said:
We don't have any obvious replacements as Captain. Milner is the only one, but he isn't a regular starter.

That says it all, really.
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Which brings us to the question, is the captain really that important?

Why not just give it to one of your best players. In our case, it obviously can't be any of the defenders or the midfielders since they're all dodgy.

So why not give to one of our attacking players?


I suppose popularity and English speaking ability might be critera. So how about Salah?

The larger question still is, is the captain even that important. I mean City have Silva captaining the side when Kompany's unavailable, and he's hardly a conventional captain.
 
dmishra said:
Which brings us to the question, is the captain really that important?

Why not just give it to one of your best players. In our case, it obviously can't be any of the defenders or the midfielders since they're all dodgy.

So why not give to one of our attacking players?


I suppose popularity and English speaking ability might be critera. So how about Salah?

The larger question still is, is the captain even that important. I mean City have Silva captaining the side when Kompany's unavailable, and he's hardly a conventional captain.
Click to expand...
Captain's are meant to be the best person on the pitch to convey the coach's ideas isn't it? Or someone who has the respect of their teammates

Henderson I feel isn't very good at either

I'd give it to mane, or coutinho (shudder). The extra belief might end up pushing them to the next level
 
No chance Coutinho gets captaincy with his transfer shenanigans. Mane seems a very quiet and reserved chap. I don't think he'd be a great captain.

Salah for me should be a candidate. He has a happy, chirpy personality. Looks to get along well with both our South American crowd and the English lads. He also speaks perfect English, which is needed I guess when the captain needs to speak to the ref.

He's also our best player at the moment.
 
If its about embodiement of the coaches ideas Firmino should get it. Klopp alreadys licks his arse post match in every game he doesnt score in. Plus he seems a good egg.
 
Firmino could be a candidate as he's an ever present, and Klopp's absolute favourite. But can he speak a word of English? I've also never seen him hanging out with anyone other than Coutinho, Lucas or Moreno.
 
Very little english I think, I do wonder how Moreno in particular, copes at times, obviously basic calls and shouts are universal but anything more?

Did Gerrard hang about with the duffers? (Not that he was necessarily a beacon for great captains')
 
Yeah i'm struggling to see the bright future ahead for Henderson.

He seemed to me to be a good all rounder with a high work rate. I wonder if the work rate has dropped off a bit.
He's not the right player to be the deep lying playmaker, and it seems like he drops on between the centre backs all the time when we have possession in our half. There's not much purpose to what he does.

He's never going to play a more attacking role when Lallana, Coutinho, and even Gini, are ahead of him. So if he can't play the role that suits him best and he doesn't play the role he's in well enough is there much value in holding onto him ?
 
Henderson's time is done. The odd good match here or there aside, I'm afraid he's another one that has succumbed to injuries.

Matip could be considered as captain. He will clearly start whenever fit, seems to be a reasonably intelligent lad, well liked by his team mates and obviously Klopp trusts him completely.
 
Frogfish said:
Henderson's time is done. The odd good match here or there aside, I'm afraid he's another one that has succumbed to injuries.

Matip could be considered as captain. He will clearly start whenever fit, seems to be a reasonably intelligent lad, well liked by his team mates and obviously Klopp trusts him completely.
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He's shit, though
 
Rosco said:
Yeah i'm struggling to see the bright future ahead for Henderson.

He seemed to me to be a good all rounder with a high work rate. I wonder if the work rate has dropped off a bit.
He's not the right player to be the deep lying playmaker, and it seems like he drops on between the centre backs all the time when we have possession in our half. There's not much purpose to what he does.

He's never going to play a more attacking role when Lallana, Coutinho, and even Gini, are ahead of him. So if he can't play the role that suits him best and he doesn't play the role he's in well enough is there much value in holding onto him ?
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I was with you until the beginning of your final para. A pound to a penny says Coutinho won't be a Liverpool player beyond next summer, Gini's Dr.Jekyll at home and Mr.Hyde away, and - at least for the moment - we're still competing on a number of fronts, so I reckon there is still a place for Henderson in his right position. That isn't to say we shouldn't improve on him if it becomes possible, but my bet is that that would be a sod of a lot more difficult - and expensive - than some seem to think.
 
manwithnoname said:
He's shit, though
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He was far from shit in Germany and he hasn't been shit here in most matches. It's no surprise that having Lovren on one side, and trying to keep an eye on an inexperienced Gomez on the other, with no protection from Henderson in front of him, doesn't make him look great though.
 
Judge Jules said:
I was with you until the beginning of your final para. A pound to a penny says Coutinho won't be a Liverpool player beyond next summer, Gini's Dr.Jekyll at home and Mr.Hyde away, and - at least for the moment - we're still competing on a number of fronts, so I reckon there is still a place for Henderson in his right position. That isn't to say we shouldn't improve on him if it becomes possible, but my bet is that that would be a sod of a lot more difficult - and expensive - than some seem to think.
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Lallana or Lemar (if it's him we replace Coutinho with) will slot into Countino's current position. Henderson is incapable of dribbling past anyone and isn't a ACM so there's no slot for him there. If anywhere it's RCM and we really don't need him there with Gomez (Clyne) and Salah (Mane) capable of containing that flank.
 
Froggy: beg to differ. When he was at Sunderland their fans reportedly thought he was best at ACM and that's where he was playing when his suspension played its part in costing us the title under Rodgers; over on the right, neither Gomez nor the current version of Clyne is at his best going forward or Salah covering back; and in respect of both positions we need options if we're going to sustain a heavy fixture list. I'd be fine with replacing him by someone better, but not just getting rid.
 
Henderson is in the same boat as Sturridge, injury-prone and still living off the charge to 2nd place. His form was brilliant in the last 10-15 games of that season, but he hasn't hit that form again nor has he been fit enough to play a regular role.

Our whole midfield is maddeningly inconsistent.
 
It's a bit of an indictment that there's no obvious candidate, it probably highlights our main drawback, no leaders.
I don't hate Hendo, he's limited but obviously isn't at full tilt, might never be again. I don't want Can to get any more game time for us as I hate the slimy, greasy cunt. Likewise Cuntino. I'd play Milner and, if he can cement a place, he's captain material. Other than that, struggling.
The only players I'm really happy to see on the team sheet each week are Salah, Mane, Cuntino (prick) and Lallana, when he's fit. Maybe Lallana out of that bunch. He's not really run through brick walls for material though is he?
 
Hmmmmm - I'd give it to Lallana. I think he would be perfect. Milner makes a good VC. Salah is a good shout too but maybe a bit early.
 
There's no obvious contenders which highlights our leadership issues. Probably has to come from outside the camp, buy VVD and make him captain - he seems to be an organiser and vocal, just what we need.
 
There's a report saying we are given a first refusal on Mascherano? Even at 33 I will start him ahead of Hendo.

If we want to progress from the yearly 4th or even continue to stay in 4th, we need to move past this captaincy rubbish. Hendo is not good enough and he should be dropped, captain or not.

I think people are beginning to see him for what he currently is, a totally mediocre player who works hard. He peaked in 13/14, I don't see a way back for him. As long as he continues to start games and play at the same level he is now we will never progress.
 
dmishra said:
Which brings us to the question, is the captain really that important?

Why not just give it to one of your best players. In our case, it obviously can't be any of the defenders or the midfielders since they're all dodgy.

So why not give to one of our attacking players?


I suppose popularity and English speaking ability might be critera. So how about Salah?

The larger question still is, is the captain even that important. I mean City have Silva captaining the side when Kompany's unavailable, and he's hardly a conventional captain.
Click to expand...

I don't see any natural captain in the squad. If VVD comes I'd make him captain straight off. It ought to send a message to the others and it would also be based on evidence - he DOES know how to lead.
 
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