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Will Rodgers change?

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mark1975

mark1975

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We did fantastically last season, so I think some perspective is probably due with regards to our flaws, because to go from 7th to 2nd without any still lingering, would have been miraculous. Highlighting them and how we overcome them in the future is part and parcel though.

While we're obviously looking to at least partly rectify this with signings, I do agree with the notion that personnel is only part of the problem. Systematically, despite how easy on the eye we are, when we don't have the ball there are clearly issues. Gaps between defense & midfield, centre backs dragged too wide, full backs caught high up the pitch, a lack of athleticism when Henderson is missing, players isolated etc. We all know them.

Aside from that, without getting into the mind-numbing "Plan-B" discussions, it's worth looking at what went wrong against Chelsea and Palace. Both games were symptomatic of our problems throughout the season. Individual errors and complete capitulation when without the ball, worryingly (again) as a response to losing a goal and a minor shift in the oppositions approach. Let's be honest, it was basic stuff, Pullis saw us going gung-ho and went for pace on the break. It's not even basic stuff, it's school boy stuff.

The problems against Palace can be avoided by better players, more cover when we have attacking setpieces, etc. The problems against Chelsea, where we admittedly held our own for the most part, are more worrying. Or rather, Rodgers' response post match, was more worrying.

I like a manager who sticks by his philosophy, but I like a manager more who'll learn from mistakes and not be stubborn with players (which he isn't) or tactics. Otherwise we've just got more of the same of what we had with Ged and then Rafa, nearly men who stumbled and stagnated because of their own inner battles.

Obviously he's right to a degree, we should just go for the throat, but I fear Europe will be a learning curve and that's when he'll learn the lessons and value of grinding out wins, maybe even the hard way. You'd think this would then serve him well for facing overly defensive, tactically astute sides like Chelsea, or teams with greater attacking purpose than us (not many, I know). An ability to shift emphasis between defense and attack, rather than over-reliance on one or the other.

Last season was a brilliant ride, next season is where he has to show he deserves to play with the big boys. Has he got it in him? I think he does, but I think there's a few tough lessons to be learned on the way..
 
BR has matured this season and showed that he learnt lessons from the previous season. We'll do fine and he'll get better with more quality in the team.
 
mark1975 said:
The problems against Palace can be avoided by better players, more cover when we have attacking setpieces, etc. The problems against Chelsea, where we admittedly held our own for the most part, are more worrying. Or rather, Rodgers' response is more worrying.
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What would you have done v Chelsea? A genuine question. The next day, as highlighted by Gary Neville, it showed the tactics were ok but the execution was found wanting. Chelsea was a bad day at the office for us. A bad day to have a bad day.

In general, I think Rodgers will be more than ok. But he (like the great managers) needs to add some pragmatism to his dogmatism.
 
Oliver Twist said:
What would you have done v Chelsea? A genuine question. The next day, as highlighted by Gary Neville, it showed the tactics were ok but the execution was found wanting. Chelsea was a bad day at the office for us. A bad day to have a bad day.

In general, I think Rodgers will be more than ok. But he (like the great managers) needs to add some pragmatism to his dogmatism.
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I don't mean within the context of the game, but there's an argument for being able to adjust our approach. I meant more in his post match response when he was asked if he would ever play like that. I get that he wouldn't make it a frequent approach, but I didn't really like that he dismissed it so readily. Sometimes he'll need to.
 
The addition of (hopefully) 2 or 3 real quality players will offer him the opportunity to change things about formation and style-wise.

I think we'll flip away from the diamond midfield, especially away from home, more often than we did in the second half of this year.

And I'd be stunned if we don't try to add more emphasis from wide areas than we have previously. Although that again comes with getting better players there.
 
I think he already changed his tactics quite significantly between his first and second season, so I can't see why he wouldn't tweak them again.

I would imagine he will try to decrease the burden on the fullbacks by getting better attacking wide(ish) players, and / or getting the midfield to do more defensive work. Our transfer dealings will tell us a lot about his future plans, but I doubt we will get too much indication until late July or early August.

I wouldn't use the Palace game as a benchmark. It had some unique circumstances and it's unlikely the players will experience that sort of game again. They obviously set out to score as many goals as possible, and burnt themselves out in the process. Even if we did experience a similar game next year, I'd like to think we would have a better squad to alter games from the bench.............

We need to sign better players this summer, and the success of this window will play the biggest role in how much Rodgers changes the system. Another summer like last year and we'll be playing largely the same team and experiencing the same problems. Hopefully our increased profile and Champions league football will mean we don't have to gamble as much on potential.
 
Fair points about the wide positions lads, that would certainly go someway to rectifying the issue, I think we probably lost that a bit when Sterling played inside more.
 
What was glaring for me throughout the season was that we didn't really have a player on the pitch who "Managed" the game.
By that I mean a player/s who could see during a game where things were starting to go potentially go wrong and take action. For the most part we got away with games by simply outscoring the opposition but there was a nagging feeling it would catch up with us.

These type of players are the calm, composed and defensive minded type with an emphasis on slowing the game down. This transfers to the rest of the players adding patience and control to our play, sorely missing from the Chelsea/Palace games.
We didn't have that type of player on the pitch or as an option from the bench. Imagine bringing on Did/Sami during that final run in. Teams who win the league have games where they just seem to cruise to wins seemingly without moving through the gears, we still need to learn that and bring in players who can help us achieve it. Centre midfield and defence, Top quality. We know we can score more goals than anybody, it's about game control and intelligence now.
 
Khalido said:
What was glaring for me throughout the season was that we didn't really have a player on the pitch who "Managed" the game.
By that I mean a player/s who could see during a game where things were starting to go potentially go wrong and take action. For the most part we got away with games by simply outscoring the opposition but there was a nagging feeling it would catch up with us.

These type of players are the calm, composed and defensive minded type with an emphasis on slowing the game down. This transfers to the rest of the players adding patience and control to our play, sorely missing from the Chelsea/Palace games.
We didn't have that type of player on the pitch or as an option from the bench. Imagine bringing on Did/Sami during that final run in. Teams who win the league have games where they just seem to cruise to wins seemingly without moving through the gears, we still need to learn that and bring in players who can help us achieve it. Centre midfield and defence, Top quality. We know we can score more goals than anybody, it's about game control and intelligence now.
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Yeah I've touched on this before, without getting into the pigeon-holing of players, it would be nice to have someone with experience who would, as you say, calm things down and identify issues on the pitch as games unfold. Like Gary Mac for instance, or someone with Alonso or Didi's ability to make the play more composed. Maybe, for all our speed and purpose, we just need to balance that out with a couple of clever players who read the play.
 
I think that we have one of the more flexible manager / team combos in the league. We pressed the all out attack button last season, sure, but we don't seem to be committed to any one formation or style necessarily.

In a way a bit we're a bit like Real Madrid. More than happy in possession but also devastating on the counter and hopeless in defence.

As others have said, I think better players (it sounds so simple doesn't it) in certain positions will go a long way to improving things and the point made by @Khalido is an important one. We can be a little prone to falling apart for periods during games and we need to find a way to stop that from happening. The ability to fight back is great but you don't want to keep putting yourself in that position.
 
I loved our season. I don't think we need to change much.

We don't need the Manager to improve his systems. We need to recruit better players who will better carry out the system.
 
mark1975 said:
Yeah I've touched on this before, without getting into the pigeon-holing of players, it would be nice to have someone with experience who would, as you say, calm things down and identify issues on the pitch as games unfold. Like Gary Mac for instance, or someone with Alonso or Didi's ability to make the play more composed. Maybe, for all our speed and purpose, we just need to balance that out with a couple of clever players who read the play.
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Didn't Alberto slow the game down? Mind you he lacks the strength (and probably the skill) to make decisive tackles.
 
Gary Mac is an excellent shout. When you think of the finale to that 2001 treble season, he was arguably our most influential player. It's that type of player who gets you over the finishing line. There isn't a lot of great football played in the final 6wks of a season when prizes/relegation become possibilities.
Words like, focus, control, intelligence and nerve start coming into the mix. There aren't enough of our players that spring instantly to mind when I say those words.
We've said it in the Summers of 2002 and 2009, if we make the right 2 or 3 signings, we can do it.
 
I wondered at the time, and I still do, whether Rodgers' approach was partly dependent on the personnel available to him, specifically whether he declined to play a more canny game against Chelsea and Palace because he didn't think we had the personnel to make it work. I hope so because, unlike some of you, I do think the approach against Palace was mistaken (not entirely convinced about the Chelsea game either, though I accept there's more doubt about that). For me there was never any prospect, none whatsoever, of closing the GD gap with City. The attempt to do so (a) cost us in ways which others have already referred to and, over and above that, (b) geed the Palace players up big-time, as in "So these feckers think they're going to get another 9 against us, do they? Let's show 'em". If Rodgers genuinely didn't think the players at his disposal could play any other way I can (grudgingly) accept that, though I see it as a partial failure on the coaching side. What would bother me more would be if he said "We're going to attack because that's the way I want to play regardless of what else is happening". If that's what he did, that has to change.
 
I don't think we did that badly against Chelsea or Palace, we should have had at least a draw against Chelsea, even the most one eyed Chelski fan would admit they got lucky in that game, and we should have been at least 6 nil up against Palace. The Palace game was the game Rogers didn't cover himself with glory, we really should have shut up shop at 3-1.
I think our system is very very demanding on the players, we always seem to look very tired towards the end of games. Whether this is a fitness / conditioning problem or just a byproduct of how we play I don't know but with more games to play this is something I am very concerned about. How about Sami Kadhira, I think he would be perfect in that Gary Mac / Jan Molby role we are crying out for and may even be available
 
Judge Jules said:
I wondered at the time, and I still do, whether Rodgers' approach was partly dependent on the personnel available to him, specifically whether he declined to play a more canny game against Chelsea and Palace because he didn't think we had the personnel to make it work. I hope so because, unlike some of you, I do think the approach against Palace was mistaken (not entirely convinced about the Chelsea game either, though I accept there's more doubt about that). For me there was never any prospect, none whatsoever, of closing the GD gap with City. The attempt to do so (a) cost us in ways which others have already referred to and, over and above that, (b) geed the Palace players up big-time, as in "So these feckers think they're going to get another 9 against us, do they? Let's show 'em". If Rodgers genuinely didn't think the players at his disposal could play any other way I can (grudgingly) accept that, though I see it as a partial failure on the coaching side. What would bother me more would be if he said "We're going to attack because that's the way I want to play regardless of what else is happening". If that's what he did, that has to change.
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You are quite right about the Palace match, Pulis said as much in his pre match interview, saying there was alot of disrespectful chat in the run up to the game. We just needed to win the game and sending on Moses instead of Agger was a catastrophic tactical error as it turned out. Have to say Lucas was utter garbage and didn't do Johnson any favours either
 
Not entirely IMHO. Talk of "the system" worries me a bit. Having a system and sticking to it "come what may" is never going to work. We have to be able to see when we need to tweak it, and then do so. Rodgers has more to learn, just like the players do.
 
Judge Jules said:
Not entirely IMHO. Talk of "the system" worries me a bit. Having a system and sticking to it "come what may" is never going to work. We have to be able to see when we need to tweak it, and then do so. Rodgers has more to learn, just like the players do.
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I thought we played several different 'systems' during the season and Rodgers made numerous substitutions and tactical changes during matches, some worked, some didn't.

I think, as fans, we're putting too much emphasis on systems sometimes. I think better quality players will improve the Managers hand when it comes to game changing decisions. Our bench has looked very ordinary in comparison with Citeh, Chelski, Arse, Mancs, even the Bitters and Spurs.
 
keniget said:
I think that we have one of the more flexible manager / team combos in the league. We pressed the all out attack button last season, sure, but we don't seem to be committed to any one formation or style necessarily.

In a way a bit we're a bit like Real Madrid. More than happy in possession but also devastating on the counter and hopeless in defence.

As others have said, I think better players (it sounds so simple doesn't it) in certain positions will go a long way to improving things and the point made by @Khalido is an important one. We can be a little prone to falling apart for periods during games and we need to find a way to stop that from happening. The ability to fight back is great but you don't want to keep putting yourself in that position.
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We need one or two more leaders in the team. With Carragher gone, we look very thin in that respect. There were times when the team looked hopelessly fragile in the run in. For all his leading by example, sadly our captain couldn't provide the kick up the arse when the team needed it the most. I know we're buying youth these days, but I think it's time to add some experience. They don't have to be ancient, just charismatic and great at what they do. I expect that's why we're trying to sign the likes of Lallana. Excellent player, club captain, but with plenty of years ahead of him.
 
Controversial as fuck, but here we go, I'd like Suarez or Henderson to be made team captain while Stevie remains as club captain but plays a supporting role to his replacement, Lars Bender or such. It has to happen some time.
I'll go and hide.
 
Judge Jules said:
Not entirely IMHO. Talk of "the system" worries me a bit. Having a system and sticking to it "come what may" is never going to work. We have to be able to see when we need to tweak it, and then do so. Rodgers has more to learn, just like the players do.
Click to expand...

not so sure. a better squad with more intelligent players would understand his ethos much better. against the chavs we rushed the game, something which BR is against.
 
mark1975 said:
We did fantastically last season, so I think some perspective is probably due with regards to our flaws, because to go from 7th to 2nd without any still lingering, would have been miraculous. Highlighting them and how we overcome them in the future is part and parcel though.

While we're obviously looking to at least partly rectify this with signings, I do agree with the notion that personnel is only part of the problem. Systematically, despite how easy on the eye we are, when we don't have the ball there are clearly issues. Gaps between defense & midfield, centre backs dragged too wide, full backs caught high up the pitch, a lack of athleticism when Henderson is missing, players isolated etc. We all know them.

Aside from that, without getting into the mind-numbing "Plan-B" discussions, it's worth looking at what went wrong against Chelsea and Palace. Both games were symptomatic of our problems throughout the season. Individual errors and complete capitulation when without the ball, worryingly (again) as a response to losing a goal and a minor shift in the oppositions approach. Let's be honest, it was basic stuff, Pullis saw us going gung-ho and went for pace on the break. It's not even basic stuff, it's school boy stuff.

The problems against Palace can be avoided by better players, more cover when we have attacking setpieces, etc. The problems against Chelsea, where we admittedly held our own for the most part, are more worrying. Or rather, Rodgers' response post match, was more worrying.

I like a manager who sticks by his philosophy, but I like a manager more who'll learn from mistakes and not be stubborn with players (which he isn't) or tactics. Otherwise we've just got more of the same of what we had with Ged and then Rafa, nearly men who stumbled and stagnated because of their own inner battles.

Obviously he's right to a degree, we should just go for the throat, but I fear Europe will be a learning curve and that's when he'll learn the lessons and value of grinding out wins, maybe even the hard way. You'd think this would then serve him well for facing overly defensive, tactically astute sides like Chelsea, or teams with greater attacking purpose than us (not many, I know). An ability to shift emphasis between defense and attack, rather than over-reliance on one or the other.

Last season was a brilliant ride, next season is where he has to show he deserves to play with the big boys. Has he got it in him? I think he does, but I think there's a few tough lessons to be learned on the way..
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God post. But I'm way too pissed to reply now. Expect a response anon.
 
one of the things on my list for rodgers to improve on is transfers . Of course there have been successes but i think we could even be ahead of where we are squad wise if we'd got more from a fair few of his (and this committee's) signings . We can hopefully shop in a higher market now so we shouldn't need to gamble on some players .
Maybe it's a little different but both houllier and benitez faced summers where it was felt a good transfer window was all that was needed to really compete. They both messed it up for one reason or another and never really recovered . So it will be interesting to see how this one goes for rodgers .
 
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