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Unbiased point of view?

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etchy

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from soccernet: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=781604&sec=england&cc=4716

Liverpool's asking price for a takeover may be as much as an inflated £800 million, according to analysis from a leading City expert in football finance.

The replacement or refurbishment of Anfield is a key issue in any takeover.
And David Bick, Chairman of Square 1 Consulting, argues that Liverpool are in urgent need of a "rescue" package rather than a takeover, as the club need to move from their crumbling Anfield to a new stadium, and are in danger of losing star players such as Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard.

Bick is an advisor to Keith Harris, who has been behind two abortive takeover bids for the stricken club in the recent past, and says City sources have informed him that even the reduced price the two American owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett might accept, £500 million, is far too high, saying: "Rumours abound of a price being asked from £500 million up to an incredible £800 million."

While Harris is a leading light in the 'Red Knights' group heavily linked with trying to buy out the Glazers at Manchester United, Bick has focused on their North-West rivals and warns of an impending £10 million fee to be imposed by the Royal Bank of Scotland to extend bank-loan facilities for a further six months.

And Bick suggests that, while the club is due to publish and publicise a £35 million profit, there are huge similarities with the recent Manchester United bond issue launched after a similar posting of a putative financial gain.

As part of their bond prospectus, United were able to claim a £48.2 million profit, having sold Cristiano Ronaldo for £80 million while Liverpool sold Xabi Alonso for £35 million to Real Madrid last summer - almost the exact amount Bick believes will be trumpeted as this year's profit.

In a damning indictment of financial affairs and long-standing neglect at Liverpool, Bick writes in an open letter: "Liverpool has potentially reached its most important historic point. The club has now gone 20 years without winning the English League title. It has never won the Premier League. It was drummed out earlier than expected from this year's Champions League and now, as one of the world's biggest clubs, faces the ignominy and reality of failing to qualify for next season's premier European competition.

"To my mind, the people running the club over the last two decades must bear the bulk of the responsibility and the brunt of the criticism. On a recent visit to Anfield to watch my team, West Ham, play like a pub team with a Force 10 hangover, one had only to look at the stadium to see the years of dreadful neglect at first hand. Unbelievably, there are still pillars holding up one roof!

"Whether it comes down to incompetence or thoughtless arrogance at Liverpool, we have seen the club left behind by the other great clubs like Arsenal, Manchester United, Manchester City, Chelsea and Spurs. They have rebuilt their stadia to high standards and, largely speaking, to capacities that accommodate their substantial fan bases. Yet all Liverpool fans have heard is talk and a string of broken promises.

"The other clubs have built their revenue streams or attracted owners that have given them the wherewithal to compete effectively at the top of the modern game. It seems to me that the Liverpool fans are being treated to a 'product' that is rooted in the 1970s. Sadly, in very recent times, Liverpool has also been owned by people who have said much and delivered little of the stated vision. Replacing them is a very urgent imperative.

"Liverpool claimed in a recent statement that it has 'overseen a significant improvement in the financial performance of the club since 2007'. Well, that's difficult to assess. The management has not published accounts for Kop Football (Holdings) Limited - the main trading company - since the filing for the year to 31 July 2008 and, in that year, the business showed net losses of over £42 million and net interest payments on debt of £35 million not covered at all (let alone adequately) by operating profit - pre-player amortisation and trading - of £25 million.

"Debt remains stubbornly near a reported £240 million, so what profits are produced do not leave much, if anything, for the manager to work with, even if we believe rumours of a £35 million profit for the year that will end this 31 July. In short, Liverpool's financial structure can't work in my opinion and, since the sale of the club in 2007, it was never going to.

"If the manager cannot operate competitively in the transfer market, he has no chance of competing regularly in the top four. We have now seen the first concrete sign of this with the failure to even stay in the top four. Manchester United, a club manfully trying to cope with a similarly onerous financial structure will also, I believe, start to experience similar problems, although their state of decline is nowhere near as advanced as Liverpool's.

"It seems axiomatic to me that Liverpool needs new, responsible owners and new top-flight, football-experienced executive management. It will not be beyond the wit of man, the new well regarded chairman included, to find such a new owner. But first of all, Liverpool needs to stop spinning silly numbers. Rumours abound of a price being asked from £500 million up to an incredible £800 million, the lower of which is, in my view, way over the top for a club in its current condition and by any sensible comparison with Arsenal or Manchester United.

Bick pinpoints the burning issue of a new stadium, a project that has stalled during over three years of American ownership, and says that this can only make any takeover more complicated.

"Financially at least, Liverpool must have a new stadium if it is to have any hope of restoring past glories," he writes. "But the finance for that, and any subsequent financial benefit to owners, must accrue to those who put up the money. In any case, this will not be a conventional acquisition of a football asset - it is more likely now to be a rescue.

"The new owners will need to be people of high calibre. They will need to have access to very large sums of money to build the new stadium, revitalise the management and allow for a well thought-through strengthening of the playing squad."

On the current and much-debated issue of Rafael Benitez's future as Liverpool manager, Bick expresses the pressing need for stability to be restored or else the club could face a doomsday scenario. "Right now, Liverpool is at risk of losing its manager and some of its best players, demoralised by a recent Europa Cup semi-final defeat and a poor season. While no-one is irreplaceable, such an exodus will leave a new owner with an even more difficult task. Therefore, the new chairman of Liverpool needs to act with some swiftness.

"Once decline becomes precipitous, even money may not prevent the decline spiralling into permanency."

Bick's open letter, headed 'Rescuing Liverpool', seen by Soccernet, may well cause shock waves among the Premier League community and not just at Anfield.
 
dire. not shocked but surprised at the madness. can't say disagree with much of that. worrying that is gonna need a rescue job
 
i've always said the prices being mooted are way over the top. everything seems to rest on how hard RBS's stance on a sale is - if it really is a final deadline then the valuations are just desperate posturing.

i'm optimistic we'll be 'rescued', but it's still extremely worrying reading.
 
I don't understand his motives for writing that. Is he involved in a potential takeover bid and thus trying to drive the price down?

And where does Orville fit into all this?
 
It always makes me laugh though - Hicks bleating on about the club being worth more based on it's future revenue if the stadium is built. Which is more or less the position they were in when they bought it. "So it's worth loads more because we've done err.... fuck all to it"

Cunt.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=40083.msg1098957#msg1098957 date=1272983517]
I don't understand his motives for writing that. Is he involved in a potential takeover bid and thus trying to drive the price down?

And where does Orville fit into all this?
[/quote]
have no idea if this is an exercise to drive the price down. it's a realistic evaluation of the turmoil the club is in unless it sorts out the ownership problem quickly. i get a feeling that this was written to warn of the unsustainability of leveraged buy outs and unfortunately we're a prime example of it.
 
This guy knows fuck all. The yanks could be agreeing to sell to dic for 300m as we speak for all he knows.
Jog on and take the duck and monkey with cunto.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40083.msg1098967#msg1098967 date=1272986107]

Jog on and take the duck and monkey with cunto.

[/quote]

Anyone?
 
[quote author=etchy link=topic=40083.msg1098935#msg1098935 date=1272981475] crumbling Anfield
[/quote]

That's not true - apart from the Main Stand, Anfield is quite modern. I appreciate the commercial case for a new stadium but it does seem rather a waste to flatten it. Everton would die for a stadium like that to replace Woodison Park. 🙂
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=40083.msg1098962#msg1098962 date=1272984624]
It always makes me laugh though - Hicks bleating on about the club being worth more based on it's future revenue if the stadium is built. Which is more or less the position they were in when they bought it. "So it's worth loads more because we've done err.... fuck all to it"

Cunt.
[/quote]

Quite.

It's like me selling my house for £4M, because you could, hypothetically, buy all the land around it and extend.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40083.msg1098968#msg1098968 date=1272986366]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40083.msg1098967#msg1098967 date=1272986107]

Jog on and take the duck and monkey with cunto.

[/quote]

Anyone?
[/quote]

duck = orville = keith harris.

i'm finding 'monkey' and 'cunto' rather more cryptic.
 
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=40083.msg1098983#msg1098983 date=1272988130]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40083.msg1098968#msg1098968 date=1272986366]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40083.msg1098967#msg1098967 date=1272986107]

Jog on and take the duck and monkey with cunto.

[/quote]

Anyone?
[/quote]

duck = orville = keith harris.

i'm finding 'monkey' and 'cunto' rather more cryptic.
[/quote]Didnt he have a monkey too? I musta dreamt it.
I should have written jog on CUNTO and take the duck and monkey with you.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=40083.msg1098995#msg1098995 date=1272989464]
He had a monkey called Cuddles.
[/quote]Yeah Brendan seeeeeee he had a monkey!!
 
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=40083.msg1098999#msg1098999 date=1272989942]
I thought it was an Orangutan
[/quote]Im not sure, I never saw it's penis.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40083.msg1099000#msg1099000 date=1272990051]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=40083.msg1098999#msg1098999 date=1272989942]
I thought it was an Orangutan
[/quote]Im not sure, I never saw it's penis.
[/quote]

It was a female ... so you were correct on all three counts.
 
[quote author=Portly link=topic=40083.msg1098969#msg1098969 date=1272986457]
[quote author=etchy link=topic=40083.msg1098935#msg1098935 date=1272981475] crumbling Anfield
[/quote]

That's not true - apart from the Main Stand, Anfield is quite modern. I appreciate the commercial case for a new stadium but it does seem rather a waste to flatten it. Everton would die for a stadium like that to replace Woodison Park. 🙂
[/quote]

It must be in the genes, that was the main issue I picked up on bro'.
The cheeky bastard, "Crumbling Anfield" whoever wrote that has never been there. As you so wisely said the main stand is the oldest part and that is hardly falling down.
It's just that it's too small, and increasing the capacity is not viable.
I didn't bother reading any further after that bollocks

regards
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40083.msg1099035#msg1099035 date=1272994672]
I didn't bother reading any further after that bollocks
[/quote]

He says further down:

"On a recent visit to Anfield to watch my team, West Ham, play like a pub team with a Force 10 hangover, one had only to look at the stadium to see the years of dreadful neglect at first hand. Unbelievably, there are still pillars holding up one roof!"

This guy Bick is clearly a prize tit. Here's a pic of Upton Park, his own club ground.

west+ham.jpg
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40083.msg1099035#msg1099035 date=1272994672]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=40083.msg1098969#msg1098969 date=1272986457]
[quote author=etchy link=topic=40083.msg1098935#msg1098935 date=1272981475] crumbling Anfield
[/quote]

That's not true - apart from the Main Stand, Anfield is quite modern. I appreciate the commercial case for a new stadium but it does seem rather a waste to flatten it. Everton would die for a stadium like that to replace Woodison Park. 🙂
[/quote]

It must be in the genes, that was the main issue I picked up on bro'.
The cheeky bastard, "Crumbling Anfield" whoever wrote that has never been there. As you so wisely said the main stand is the oldest part and that is hardly falling down.
It's just that it's too small, and increasing the capacity is not viable.
I didn't bother reading any further after that bollocks

regards
[/quote]

Yeah, I made it through the third paragraph before giving up on yet another amazingly biased article.


These experts being quoted in articles like this are almost always laughable in the extreme. M&A's are never as cut and dried as journalists try to present because to consider all the factors would mean confusing the majority of their readers. They don't write these articles to educate but to provoke discussion and reactions that entice others to read them. They're about as biased and one sided as it gets.

It's not hard to justify at least 500m for Liverpool on current readings since one of the major factors with M&A (as we've all commented about during Parry's time) is brand name. Man City are the poor relations of united and always will be, they're small time in honours, prestige, fame etc yet were bought for about 240m (between 200m and 250m depending on which official document you read).

The differences between Liverpool and City are enormous; Liverpool is singularly the greatest club in English football history and has one of the most iconic ground names in world football. Yet, as pointed out by H&G when they arrived, it is a point of differentiation that has not been capitalized and is only now starting to bring in rewards.

Not only is it the most successful club in English football but it's one of the most successful clubs in Europe and World Football - certainly more so than any other club in the most famous domestic league in the world. The very important factor on this is the demographic; the 70's and 80's were the most successful periods of the clubs history. The demographic most easily influenced by success are the young and the kids of that period are now in their mid 30's to early 40's - the point at which most economists agree is the age of maximum spend for most of the population.

Where Man City have a 47,000 seat ground it's largely an irrelevant factor for them but for Liverpool it is a different story; their season ticket waiting list is so huge that many commentators predict that a 75,000 seat ground could be largely bank-rolled by the current waiting list. Man City have no such promise of ticket funds.

Finally, not only do LFC have the guarantee of ticket purchases, an iconic brand name at the point of its greatest potential right now, a name that - like it or not - has been improved by the current owners and will continue to do so but they also have the approval, red tape and paperwork completed for a new ground to capitalize on the glorious success that any new investor will naturally be dreaming of.

All in all it's pretty easy to justify at least a 500m sale price - particularly considering the price of Man City. Articles written by ignorant, opinionated journalists with little or nothing behind they're bluster denigrating the club as in dire straits is sensationalism designed to exploit the fear of the fans who link the current on field performance with off field success. I expect any new owners to be amortising massive amounts of goodwill for an extended period of time.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40083.msg1098980#msg1098980 date=1272987650]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=40083.msg1098962#msg1098962 date=1272984624]
It always makes me laugh though - Hicks bleating on about the club being worth more based on it's future revenue if the stadium is built. Which is more or less the position they were in when they bought it. "So it's worth loads more because we've done err.... fuck all to it"

Cunt.
[/quote]

Quite.

It's like me selling my house for £4M, because you could, hypothetically, buy all the land around it and extend.
[/quote]

Except that you don't have the planning permission for that.
 
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=40083.msg1099221#msg1099221 date=1273019830]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40083.msg1099035#msg1099035 date=1272994672]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=40083.msg1098969#msg1098969 date=1272986457]
[quote author=etchy link=topic=40083.msg1098935#msg1098935 date=1272981475] crumbling Anfield
[/quote]

That's not true - apart from the Main Stand, Anfield is quite modern. I appreciate the commercial case for a new stadium but it does seem rather a waste to flatten it. Everton would die for a stadium like that to replace Woodison Park. 🙂
[/quote]

It must be in the genes, that was the main issue I picked up on bro'.
The cheeky bastard, "Crumbling Anfield" whoever wrote that has never been there. As you so wisely said the main stand is the oldest part and that is hardly falling down.
It's just that it's too small, and increasing the capacity is not viable.
I didn't bother reading any further after that bollocks

regards
[/quote]

Yeah, I made it through the third paragraph before giving up on yet another amazingly biased article.


These experts being quoted in articles like this are almost always laughable in the extreme. M&A's are never as cut and dried as journalists try to present because to consider all the factors would mean confusing the majority of their readers. They don't write these articles to educate but to provoke discussion and reactions that entice others to read them. They're about as biased and one sided as it gets.

It's not hard to justify at least 500m for Liverpool on current readings since one of the major factors with M&A (as we've all commented about during Parry's time) is brand name. Man City are the poor relations of united and always will be, they're small time in honours, prestige, fame etc yet were bought for about 240m (between 200m and 250m depending on which official document you read).

The differences between Liverpool and City are enormous; Liverpool is singularly the greatest club in English football history and has one of the most iconic ground names in world football. Yet, as pointed out by H&G when they arrived, it is a point of differentiation that has not been capitalized and is only now starting to bring in rewards.

Not only is it the most successful club in English football but it's one of the most successful clubs in Europe and World Football - certainly more so than any other club in the most famous domestic league in the world. The very important factor on this is the demographic; the 70's and 80's were the most successful periods of the clubs history. The demographic most easily influenced by success are the young and the kids of that period are now in their mid 30's to early 40's - the point at which most economists agree is the age of maximum spend for most of the population.

Where Man City have a 47,000 seat ground it's largely an irrelevant factor for them but for Liverpool it is a different story; their season ticket waiting list is so huge that many commentators predict that a 75,000 seat ground could be largely bank-rolled by the current waiting list. Man City have no such promise of ticket funds.

Finally, not only do LFC have the guarantee of ticket purchases, an iconic brand name at the point of its greatest potential right now, a name that - like it or not - has been improved by the current owners and will continue to do so but they also have the approval, red tape and paperwork completed for a new ground to capitalize on the glorious success that any new investor will naturally be dreaming of.

All in all it's pretty easy to justify at least a 500m sale price - particularly considering the price of Man City. Articles written by ignorant, opinionated journalists with little or nothing behind they're bluster denigrating the club as in dire straits is sensationalism designed to exploit the fear of the fans who link the current on field performance with off field success. I expect any new owners to be amortising massive amounts of goodwill for an extended period of time.
[/quote]

Great post, Wiz. I feel suddenly better now.
 
[quote author=Buddha link=topic=40083.msg1099271#msg1099271 date=1273046115]
Me too, cheers Wiz.
[/quote]


i don't get why his opinion's more valid than that of a 'football finance expert', especially considering that he said he didn't see the need to read most of the offending article.
 
Sticking a 500M pound price tag on something ephemeral as "history" is a bit of a stretch. We cannot compete financially it is just a matter of time till the value plummets as we are left further and further behind on the playing field, ffs we are already talking of selling out two best players and the season hasnt even finished, GnH and there broken promises are killing the club.
 
I thought the article was pretty much on the money. I was slightly irked by the reference to the supposedly 'great' clubs that have surpassed us (and am guessing that's the reason some people stopped reading), but if you forgive that unfortunate choice of words and focus on what he's saying, there's really not much to complain about.
 
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=40083.msg1099221#msg1099221 date=1273019830]
All in all it's pretty easy to justify at least a 500m sale price - particularly considering the price of Man City. Articles written by ignorant, opinionated journalists with little or nothing behind they're bluster denigrating the club as in dire straits is sensationalism designed to exploit the fear of the fans who link the current on field performance with off field success. I expect any new owners to be amortising massive amounts of goodwill for an extended period of time.
[/quote]

Great effort in your response, Wizardry. Point taken on the untapped potential on the heritage of the club.
A couple of things stand out for me though.
1. Article was pulled out by a journalist for sure but quoted word for word from this Bick guy who's in the M&A business. It is opinionated but I fail to see how this is biased i.e. as an agenda against the club. It certainly paints the club in trouble in it's current strategy but did we not know that already?
2. The bit about the 500 mil valuation based on Liverpool's heritage is arguable. What has the current owners contributed in their 'reign' that justifies a 2-3 times increase in the club's value? Actually, they've dragged this heritage down in my eyes. It's in a similar vein to H&G argument now that new owners have to pay a premium for a planned but non-existent stadium.
3. Is it wrong for me to hope the wider media brings some balance so a sale can be made quicker then the new owners can truly contribute to realising the potential of this heritage, contribute the monies saved to players/stadium and not line the pockets of H&G? By all accounts the unrealistic valuations of the club is holding up the sale.
Ok, that's 3 points but who's counting. 😉
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40083.msg1099377#msg1099377 date=1273062569]
I thought the article was pretty much on the money. I was slightly irked by the reference to the supposedly 'great' clubs that have surpassed us (and am guessing that's the reason some people stopped reading), but if you forgive that unfortunate choice of words and focus on what he's saying, there's really not much to complain about.
[/quote]


that's exactly what i thought. sure, i was a bit indignant at the OTT slagging of anfield etc, but the important analysis all looked sound.
 
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