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Poll Transfer committee: a failure?

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Should FSG appoint a sporting director in place of the transfer committee?


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rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member
Below this posting I'll copy-paste the article from the link posted by @Hansern in another thread, not because I'm pimping for likes (honestly, I'm not!), but because it's worth reading and discussing. I like Rodgers as a manager, but I do think the current structure of the "transfer committee" is not nearly effective enough. We can argue about the merits of this or that particular signing – this has been done to death and that's not the point. What's damning for me is that I don't see in those signings a coherent unified vision. What I see instead is a clear-as-day distinction between "Rodgers signings" and "committee signings."

"Rodgers signings" betray a pretty narrow scope of vision of a manager who doesn't have a particular breadth of knowledge about football worldwide and, though it may sound harsh, no obvious talent for scouting. That's OK actually – not every great manager is a great scout, in fact true manager-scouts are rare. Rodgers' tactical ideas are absolutely cutting-edge and progressive, this along with man-management is his core strength. So who are the players Rodgers was clearly pushing for? Borini, Allen, Lallana, Lambert, Sturridge, Moses, Lovren, Origi and ones we pursued, but which didn't work out: Dempsey, Sigurdsson, Ashley Williams, Walcott, Remy, Bertrand, currently Delph and Milner and Berahino. I'm sure I missed a few, but you get the point. There are some good players among this list, some less so, but from a glance on this list it's clear that if we only rely on Rodgers' suggestions we clearly won't build a club that's going to secure a place among the European elite.

Rodgers has an idea of what qualities he wants in a player, but he is not blessed with an intimate knowledge of a vibrant market that has great value for money, like Arsene has (or had in the past) with French league, Rafa to some extent with Spain, many Italian, Spanish and Portugese managers with Argentina, Colombia and Brazil or Dutch managers with North Europe or Germans with Eastern Europe and Turkey. The market Rodgers knows best (and even there he is probably not the keenest scout) also happens to be the most overpriced market in the world. Therefore even some of the best Rodgers' signings are not really great value for money and in many cases there is no other way to judge it than to say we are (or were ready to be) overpaying for mediocrity.

The signings I would consider "committee signings" have been of generally uneven quality. There is a clear emphasis on getting value for money (that's why they are so easy to distinguish from "Rodgers signings," where we seem to be willing to pay any price for the player manager wants), which led to some inspired signings of great value (Coutinho, Can), some duds (Aspas, Balotelli) and a lot of investment in potential (Ilori, Luis Alberto, Assaidi, Markovic, Moreno). Overall it would not be so bad – every great scout will have a few duds – but it's worrying to see that at times Rodgers has no idea what to do with some of the players we end up signing through the committee, they just don't fit what he's trying to build at all.

Modern football is not what it was 30 years ago and now every big club necessarily has to have someone who is intimately familiar with at least some of the most productive world football markets. When that person is the manager – great. If not, then a few different problems can arise. You will either get the "manager's picks" which means severely limiting the pool of talents you can pick from and therefore limiting your ambitions. Or you will get a situation where the picks will reflect the state of the power balance inside the committee rather than being a part of a coherent vision for building up the club.

Maybe the worst thing about the manager-as-part-of-the-committee structure is that the most inspired and innovative ideas are often also the most difficult to defend in a group setting – precisely because they are innovative. So a scout who has an idea to spend £5-10M on some unknown Eastern European player – who will later go on to become a superstar – might not have enough weight in the committee to push his idea through at the expense of the competing ideas and the opportunity will be gone. I'm sure in the next few years we will hear a lot about players who were considered by LFC, but made it big elsewhere.

By its very nature a committee cannot have a coherent vision, we know it all too well from politics where the surest way to kill or hopelessly dilute an idea is to throw it down to the committee. The only way that's proven to work effectively in sports as in business or politics is trusting one person with the abundance of knowledge and skills for the job and holding him/her accountable for the results. There is a reason why Southampton is in 3rd place despite a change of manager and losing half of their best players. (They might not stay there come May, but this is clearly not a fluke) There is a reason why clubs such as Porto, Sevilla, Ajax, Borussia Dortmund, Atletico Madrid and yes, Spurs, keep reinventing themselves and always rising near the top in their respective countries – and that reason is fundamentally sound transfer policy and decision-making structure.

I think I've made my case clear. It's time for FSG to dismantle the committee and appoint a sporting director. It can be one of the current members of the committee or someone from outside – what matters more is the structure. This structure is better for the club and better for Rodgers too – they just need to find a right way to explain it to him. Then he can concentrate on his core strength and will get a more consistently high-quality supply of players for fulfilling his tactical vision. He will find it easier to find common ground and common vision with one person than with five. And maybe not having to sit at the committee meetings will finally free some time for him to work on the defense.
 
monchi-sevilla.jpg


30 October 2014
Lee Roden

Football doesn’t award a Ballon d’Or to sporting directors, but if it did, Ramon Rodriguez Verdejo would be in Messi territory.

MONCHI'S BEST BUSINESS:

rakitic-monchi.jpg

  • Dani Alves from Bahia, €500k, 2003
  • Julio Baptista from Sao Paulo, €3.5m, 2003
  • Luis Fabiano from Porto, €8.8m, 2005
  • Freddie Kanoute from Tottenham, €6.5m, 2005
  • Adriano from Coritiba, €2.1m, 2005
  • Seydou Keita from Lens, €4m, 2007
  • Ivan Rakitic from Schalke, €2.5m, 2011
  • Gary Medel from CDUC, €3m, 2011

Monchi, as he’s better known, is a master of his craft. He is the king of regenerating at a net profit while still satisfying the trophy hunger of passionate supporters who demand success. In the last 10 years Sevilla have won four European titles, three domestic cups and mounted a league challenge that very nearly split Barcelona and Real Madrid. While countless players, managers, and even the club’s president have come and gone, the one constant is the man who builds the squads.
Monchi’s ability to spot not only a great player, but the right player, is unrivalled – be that an unpolished gem or someone whose talent wasn’t fully extracted at a previous club.
Beyond the bulging trophy cabinet at Sevilla, perhaps the greatest affirmation of his quality lies in the fact that he was the one who turned Catalan heads towards Dani Alves, Seydou Keita and Adriano, three important players for Pep Guardiola’s all-conquering Barcelona. He realised long before Barça that they were significant talents.
Increasing economic restraints at the Ramon Sanchez Pizjuan had many predicting Monchi’s magic would dry up, but after readjusting, the Andalucian is thriving once more. When Sevilla lost star players Jesus Navas and Alvaro Negredo in summer 2013, Monchi responded by putting together his third Europa League-winning team. When they lost Ivan Rakitic, Alberto Moreno and Federico Fazio last summer, he began assembling a side that has just moved level with Barcelona at the top of La Liga, completing the best-ever start to a league season in Sevilla’s history.

Gold digger
Monchi has made countless great signings but some were greater than others. Alves, bought for less than a million euros from Bahia, became Sevilla’s heroic playmaker from the wing in a team that won five trophies, before leaving around €35 million in its coffers when he joined Barcelona in 2008.

Freddie Kanoute, a lost man at Tottenham, was transformed at the Sanchez Pizjuan, departing in 2012 a club legend whose trophy haul is better than even Alves’s. With 136 strikes for Sevilla he has scored more for them than any other non-Spaniard, and lies fourth in their all-time scoring charts behind three players who all retired before the 1960s.

In Luis Fabiano, who had scored only three goals in a season with Porto, Monchi had the foresight to see another misused player and handed the Brazilian a new lease of life in red and white. Fabiano won six trophies at the Sanchez Pizjuan, his 108 goals placing him fifth behind Kanoute in the club’s all-time list.

Monchi isn’t restricted to spotting attacking talents either: as a former Sevilla goalkeeper, he must take particular pride in rescuing Andres Palop from a frustrating time at Valencia, helping him become Sevilla’s greatest keeper of the modern era. Palop won five titles in a year with the Andalucians, six in total.

alves-kanoute-fabiano.jpg

The remnants of the ‘best Sevilla ever’ are now long gone, but the Sevilla sporting director’s brilliance continues. Ivan Rakitic was already a talented but raw attacker at Schalke when Monchi learned he only had six months left on his contract and promptly snapped him up for a mere €2.5m in winter 2011.
The Croatian became the finished article at Sevilla, moving permanently to central midfield and captaining them to a record-equalling third Europa League in 2014. Voted man of the match in the final, his sale to Barcelona last summer raised around €22.5m for the club.
While others stop to contemplate, Monchi acts, and his nose is usually sound. Time and time again he leaves bigger clubs looking like fools as he pays less for more, and if you believe the rumours, those big clubs now want to cut out the middle man.

The most intriguing suggestion is that he could be part of Augusti Benedito’s Barcelona presidential campaign in 2016. The role of sporting director may still be met with distrust in England, but in Spain, Monchi has a big reputation. Attaching his name to a bid may well be a vote-winner among Barça types tired of the misfiring Andoni Zubizarreta.
The trouble with money
The attraction is easy to see. Why pay significant money for the likes of Keita, Alves, Rakitic or Adriano when you could sign them first for less, extracting their quality for a longer period? There is one caveat worth considering. While Monchi’s balance is overwhelmingly positive, there have been a few stinkers, and they tended to occur when Sevilla spent more than usual.

At €12m, Arouna Kone was once the club’s record signing, but managed only two goals in four seasons. Abdoulay Konko, Ndri Romaric and Aquivaldo Mosquera, who also cost significant fees, are players the club would similarly like to forget about.

There is the risk that with more money to play with at a club like Barça, Monchi may not have the same capacity to hit the target consistently, but his biggest move of all goes a long way towards redeeming him. Alvaro Negredo, brought in for around €15m in 2009, remains Sevilla’s record signing.

He scored 85 goals and won the Copa del Rey before earning a €35m fee for the club in 2013, not to mention the ample joy he gave to supporters along the way. Negredo’s success only two years after signing Kone suggests Monchi learned pretty quickly from his previous errors.

negredo-navas.jpg

Negredo's signing more than compensated for some of the duffers
With other clubs looking on in envy, Monchi made himself even more desirable this year when he spent six months in London improving his English. Taking six hours' worth of language classes daily, he also travelled around stadiums studying the "economic, administrative and sporting structures" of various Premier League clubs whose model he openly admires. As it happens, one such journey to Fulham led to him observing Gerard Deulofeu, then at Everton, who is now on loan at Sevilla. Not a minute was wasted in England.
So not only is Monchi exceptionally good at his job, but on top of his already-excellent French and Spanish, he now has a grasp of English, and can therefore negotiate in three of football’s most-spoken languages. Better still, he has studied the workings of English football. That begs an obvious question: could the Premier League tempt him to put a decade-and-a-half as Sevilla sporting director to an end?

Not easily, however hard Tottenham may try to lure him to White Hart Lane (if reports are to be believed). When asked recently where he sees himself in the future, his answer was "in the stands, with my scarf, enjoying being a Sevilla fan". How fortunate for them that their greatest asset is also a die-hard supporter.
 
I think this is the best way forward for us if we are going to compete and be "smarter" with our transfers.
No one will have a 100% record but Monchi seems to have the knack of identifying the right players.
The most recent imho is Bacca for 7 mill euros from Brugge. Now a 25 mill £ player scoring a shitload of goals and attracting interest from loads of clubs.
 
I would appoint a dedicated director of football and give him the brief of continuing the committee's mostly good work: not to worry too much about picking out bargains, because our budget is relatively big, but identifying the best under-23s around.
 
Maybe I need to make a short summary of this post, clearly it's too many letters for most people. Sorry, my favorite novel is "War and Peace."
 
Out of interest, why did you put Origi down as a Rodgers signing? Just a hunch or something you've heard?
 
Excellent pair of posts from Rurik there.

As someone who had to spend far too much time sitting on committees during his working life, and who even now has to spend some time on them in the course of voluntary work, I'm not a fan of them as a regular decision-making device. In public life you do sometimes have to make decisions by committee because it's important that a wide range of people are included in the process, so that they can all get behind whatever decision is eventually taken, but that's an environment radically different from top-level football, where committees (a) are probably too cumbersome and (b) risk producing compromise decisions which don't really satisfy anybody and stand little chance of leading to true excellence.

Obv.there are also risks associated with concentrating a lot of power in just one or two pairs of hands. You're more dependent than ever on choosing the right people and ensuring (e.g.in the case of a single DOF and a manager) that they work well together. However, IMO those are risks we have to take if we want our recruitment and transfer admin.to be up to the demands made on them in today's fast-moving football at the top level. There is a serious potential problem at LFC in respect of this though, in that Rodgers (reportedly, but I believe the reports) set his face against the DOF model when it was raised with him by FSG during negotiations (I actually suspect the setting-up of the committee was itself a compromise between the two approaches, and it's duly ended up not really satisfying anybody). The only thing on which I disagree with Rurik - but unfortunately it's a biggie - is that IMO it'll be extremely difficult, if it's even possible at all, to find a way of introducing the idea of a DOF in a way which Rodgers will accept.

I don't really know where we go from here. I wouldn't want Rodgers given sole control because I'm not convinced that he's good enough yet at spotting and picking players - IMO he has it in him to get a lot better, and he may one day merit that degree of trust, but I don't think he's there yet. However, if he really won't go for the DOF model and this effectively becomes a choice between Rodgers and a structure including a DOF, we have some very big decisions to make.
 
Out of interest, why did you put Origi down as a Rodgers signing? Just a hunch or something you've heard?


Not a hunch, as he doesn't match the profile of the rest of the list, but Origi mentioned in his interview how he was impressed by Rodgers' knowledge of him and that we were scouting him for a long time. And while he is on loan Rodgers supposedly watches all his games and gives him feedback. So he is clearly very invested in him, it's definitely going to be "his" signing, more Sturridge than Balotelli.
 
The impression I got was that we'd been watching him for a long time too - perhaps even longer than Rodgers has been at the club.

I suspect he was a committee pick just like the others, and in common with most of 'their' signings, given the fair amount of say Rodgers is afforded, he was very keen on him. Which is of course very different from him having a role in identifying the player in the first place.
 
I don't have a problem with a transfer committee per se - I have issues with who is on the committee. For instance, are all members of the committee valuing the same characteristics in footballers they shortlist?
 
Football doesn’t award a Ballon d’Or to sporting directors, but if it did, Ramon Rodriguez Verdejo would be in Messi territory.

Cut for length


Articles like these never tell the full picture.

Whilst this general manager has an impressive record, it's almost impossible to know how responsible he is for its success. Like every general manager / transfer committee / manager he has a scouting network which is composed of multiple individuals of varying degrees of skill. We as fans will probably never know which of these scouts deserve credit identifying each individual signing, we only get the headline saying Ramon Rodriguez Verdejo did it all. With the exception of Carr at Newcastle, who has employed a good press agency to take care of him.

This is exactly how we ended up with Damien Comolli. He had decent scouts advising him, got lucky a few times, and had a good agent / media company making him out to be the genius behind it all.

These individual scouts are the key to every transfer network, and we need a brilliant one in every single region. Arranging the transfer prices often boils down to who can identify the talent the earliest, as the more teams want a player the higher the price, so I don't really care about the upper levels of whatever system we use as long as they are being advised well by the minions.
 
This obviously isn't 100% confirmed but it makes the debate quite interesting.
There is a lot of talk that Rodgers had two choices when going for a striker when the Remy deal collapsed, Balotelli and Eto'o. Now, if true it shows how the committee at times doesn't identify the right type of players for us and for Rodgers. I'd like to know what his wishes and shortlist for a new striker were.

Firstly they're nothing like Remy, who would have been a very good fit.
Next should have been the likes of Lacazette etc.

Its speculating a bit though.
 
This obviously isn't 100% confirmed but it makes the debate quite interesting.
There is a lot of talk that Rodgers had two choices when going for a striker when the Remy deal collapsed, Balotelli and Eto'o. Now, if true it shows how the committee at times don't identify the right type of players for us and for Rodgers. I'd like to know what his wishes and shortlist for a new striker were.

Firstly they're nothing like Remy, who would have been a very good fit.
Next should have been the likes of Lacazette etc.

Its speculating a bit though.


This is sort of my concern. We needed a new striker but was there a conversation as to what sort of attributes this striker needed to have?
 
Most sporting directors have been shite especially in England and across Europe there has been mixed success.

Monchi seems to be an exception to the rule...

At least with a committee there is more than one person making a decision which is always a good thing...
 
We could start by getting rid of the statbot on the committee, I mean has this soccernomics bollocks EVER worked anywhere. Surely identifying decent players is primarily an art rather than a science.
 
The issue for me is you don't need a transfer committee to identify the targets we've been signing, you need a mediocre talent scout who plays a lot of FIFA.

I think there's a ton of shitty politics being played both within the committee and between them and the manager.

We're also remarkably bad negotiators in relation to other clubs, which could really hurt us long term.
 
Most sporting directors have been shite especially in England and across Europe there has been mixed success.

Monchi seems to be an exception to the rule...

At least with a committee there is more than one person making a decision which is always a good thing...

Depends who is on the committee though doesn't it. If Fallows and Edwards aren't up to it the committee does more harm than good.
 
Albeit from Castles its quite interesting:

Edwards is the committee's other main protagonist. A former video analyst whom Damien Comolli brought with him from Tottenham Hotspur, Edwards gained the trust of Liverpool's principal owner, John W. Henry, by presenting a statistical model for analysing potential signings.
Famously enamoured with Billy Beane's sabermetric approach to hiring baseball players, Henry believed that in the young Englishman he had a football equivalent.
Edwards was invited to spend time with Henry at the businessman's Florida mansion. His guidance was taken seriously when Henry and the rest of Fenway Sports Group sought a replacement for former Reds manager Roy Hodgson.

Aware that numbers mattered to FSG's vision for the club, Edwards appointed Ian Graham as Liverpool's director of research. Holder of a PhD in theoretical physics, Graham had developed a computer programme designed to add discriminative value to player performance statistics provided by companies such as ProZone.

When Rodgers, a scout or an agent suggested Liverpool sign a particular player, Edwards would have the player's numbers run through the Graham model. If the computer said no, the deal was off.

When Red Bull Salzburg were looking for a buyer for Sadio Mane in the summer, Liverpool were one of the clubs approached. Graham's analysis indicated the Senegal international wasn't good enough, so Mane ended up at Southampton instead (paid for with a fraction of the money Rodgers channelled to the South Coast club for Adam Lallana, Dejan Lovren and Lambert).
 
We could start by getting rid of the statbot on the committee, I mean has this soccernomics bollocks EVER worked anywhere. Surely identifying decent players is primarily an art rather than a science.


Just because something isn't working, doesn't mean it will never work. I'd presume any stats we'd use are simply to aid selection rather than being the sole means of identifying players. I'd also imagine the methodology would be refined as we learn more about which combination of stats create the most reliable player profiles.
 
This thing about Mane/Lovren though, people are of the assumption that Mane has "made it" because he's playing well for Southampton. Errr... wasn't that the case with Lovren last season? I understand the financial implications, but anyway, it's a bit early to making assumptions either way.
 
Just because something isn't working, doesn't mean it will never work. I'd presume any stats we'd use are simply to aid selection rather than being the sole means of identifying players. I'd also imagine the methodology would be refined as we learn more about which combination of stats create the most reliable player profiles.

Applying something like sabermetrics from one sport to a totally different one is daft imho. You might as well compare formula one stats to swimming. It might suit baseball as the game is very very repetitive ( not a criticism ) and played within very tight constraints with loads and loads of games providing a lot of data.It doesn't suit football, a really fluid game with a lot less data, at all. I think stats in football don't really give the whole picture.


In any case Rodgers seem to say its mostly up to him who signs if you believe this quote so maybe the transfer committee has less influence than we think

"Obviously, I am involved heavily in the identification of the player.
The principal idea when I first came in was that like any manager you will have the first call on a player and the last call."
 
OK what systems have the most successful teams used over the last 5-7 years has a committee ever worked I can't see how one can. Your always going to settle on average.
 
Just because something isn't working, doesn't mean it will never work. I'd presume any stats we'd use are simply to aid selection rather than being the sole means of identifying players. I'd also imagine the methodology would be refined as we learn more about which combination of stats create the most reliable player profiles.

Just because something sounds remarkably naive and amateurish, doesn't mean Liverpool football Club isn't doing it.
 
The issue for me is you don't need a transfer committee to identify the targets we've been signing, you need a mediocre talent scout who plays a lot of FIFA.

I think there's a ton of shitty politics being played both within the committee and between them and the manager.

We're also remarkably bad negotiators in relation to other clubs, which could really hurt us long term.
So what you're basically saying is we need a fat teenager as a scout?
 
This thing about Mane/Lovren though, people are of the assumption that Mane has "made it" because he's playing well for Southampton. Errr... wasn't that the case with Lovren last season? I understand the financial implications, but anyway, it's a bit early to making assumptions either way.

I dont think thats the case bar Castles in this case tbh. Mane had a 1 goal pr 2 games as a winger. He's 22 and has great potential.
Its fine that we didnt sign him as we went for Markovic instead.
But that we dimiss him as not good enough is a bit worrying when you see how good he can become.

Its more a concern that this could be an example for other players that we let slip through the net because of this program he's using.
 
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