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To be fair

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HC

HC

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Take:

Rooney and Berbatov out of Utd

Lampard and Drogba out of Chelsea

Fabregas and RVP out of Arsenal

and all of the above teams are going to struggle at Sunderland.

We're still in the mix, Chelsea lost today and I won't be surprised if we see one of the big 4/5 lose now on an weekly/bi-weekly basis.

If we can blag a point against Utd and then get Torres and Gerrard fully fit and get fucking Lucas out and Aquilani in, we'll be cooking on gas.
 
Get the point you are trying to drive at, mate. But we'll certainly go on a longer, poorer streak of results without Torres and Gerrard as compared to those teams and respective players you listed.

Giggs stepped up quite a few times this season for Man Utd. For Chelsea, there's Anelka. Arshavin and Eduardo can fill in RVP's void too. For us, no one else seems to do that. Kuyt and Benayoun is the closest imo.
 
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=36498.msg964568#msg964568 date=1255799067]
Take:

Rooney and Berbatov out of Utd

Lampard and Drogba out of Chelsea

Fabregas and RVP out of Arsenal

and all of the above teams are going to struggle at Sunderland.

[/quote]

Not really. All 3 of those sides would be able to put out much better teams with the rest of their squad than the one that started for us at Sunderland.
 
Blag a point at home to United is not enough we need to win this one.

I hate to say it but having the option for Owen to step in while Torres has been injured now seems like a decision a school boy could of got right.

I think if it had been made we would be at least 3 pionts better off and the Mancs at least 2 worse off.

Rafa is making bad desisions that echo Houlliers demise into crazy madness, Not seeing the wood for the trees as it were!

I hope he can snap out of it. I like Rafa.
 
And last season we could have said take Ronaldo and Tevez out etc.....

Bottom line is we all knew what was going to happen Saturday.

our Squad is not good enough and we should have enough in reserve to beat the likes of Sunderland easily.
 
[quote author=Hardcastle link=topic=36498.msg964568#msg964568 date=1255799067]
Take:

Rooney and Berbatov out of Utd - owen the cunt and giggs, park ji sung, valencia.

Lampard and Drogba out of Chelsea - must we talk about chelsea depth? Kalou, ballack, joe cole, deco etc

Fabregas and RVP out of Arsenal - bendter, eduardo, vela, alex song in
and all of the above teams are going to struggle at Sunderland.

We're still in the mix, Chelsea lost today and I won't be surprised if we see one of the big 4/5 lose now on an weekly/bi-weekly basis.

If we can blag a point against Utd and then get Torres and Gerrard fully fit and get fucking Lucas out and Aquilani in, we'll be cooking on gas.
[/quote]

Us - 'Potential next Henry' Babel. Ngog, a fucking clueless Voronin and a headless Lucas.

Over a longer run, tell me what is going to suffer more.
 
i can't see them teams having a central midfield pf lucas and spearing quality.

even if we look past them two what i really find annoying is our absence of a second striker. torres was never going to play every game. we should have been prepared for this.

this 4231 we play gives us a handicap in a league campaign as it limits our ability to accommodate a quality second striker in the team. of course if either babel or kuyt played where they do to do a job for the team rather than because they are failed strikers we wouldn't have this problem.
 
Imho, last season when Torres and Gerrard were out injured, Xabi Alonso kept things ticking. He had the calibre and kwality to step up when required, and played in a position where he could influence the game (unlike Johnson who, despite having that attacking prowess, requires support and cannot influence the whole team from right back). Here's hoping Aquilani can bring something in.
 
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965335#msg965335 date=1255935860]
i can't see them teams having a central midfield pf lucas and spearing quality.

even if we look past them two what i really find annoying is our absence of a second striker. torres was never going to play every game. we should have been prepared for this.

this 4231 we play gives us a handicap in a league campaign as it limits our ability to accommodate a quality second striker in the team. of course if either babel or kuyt played where they do to do a job for the team rather than because they are failed strikers we wouldn't have this problem.
[/quote]

Which is the real issue.
Rafa stumbled on the Stevie Torres thing by accident, ironically through injuries. It worked and Torres and Gerrard liked it, and have since influenced matters to see it's continuation. As has been seen if either Torres or Gerrard or indeed both are missing we will keep struggling because we have no other quality up front. There have been a couple of notable exceptions to that, but don't let those exceptions kid anyone.
It was a massive mistake not bringing in a forward in the summer.


regards
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36498.msg965357#msg965357 date=1255940550]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965335#msg965335 date=1255935860]
i can't see them teams having a central midfield pf lucas and spearing quality.

even if we look past them two what i really find annoying is our absence of a second striker. torres was never going to play every game. we should have been prepared for this.

this 4231 we play gives us a handicap in a league campaign as it limits our ability to accommodate a quality second striker in the team. of course if either babel or kuyt played where they do to do a job for the team rather than because they are failed strikers we wouldn't have this problem.
[/quote]

Which is the real issue.
Rafa stumbled on the Stevie Torres thing by accident, ironically through injuries. It worked and Torres and Gerrard liked it, and have since influenced matters to see it's continuation. As has been seen if either Torres or Gerrard or indeed both are missing we will keep struggling because we have no other quality up front. There have been a couple of notable exceptions to that, but don't let those exceptions kid anyone.
It was a massive mistake not bringing in a forward in the summer.


regards
[/quote]

But to be fair, the limited amount of transfer budget aint helping.

Our major ins were Johnson, replacing Arbeloa. You just cannot count on the Swiss cheese who get injured while sneezing.

Then aquilani in to replace the Al'mighty-lonso. You know you just cannot count on Lucas.

It wasnt a mistake not bringing a forward this summer, it was a mistake bringing the wrong forwards in the previous summers.

Rafa had pinned his hopes in Babel, Ngog and Voronin. Which all seems to care anything but winning a match for US.
 
[quote author=aqua.Lai.ni link=topic=36498.msg965407#msg965407 date=1255944977]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=36498.msg965357#msg965357 date=1255940550]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965335#msg965335 date=1255935860]
i can't see them teams having a central midfield pf lucas and spearing quality.

even if we look past them two what i really find annoying is our absence of a second striker. torres was never going to play every game. we should have been prepared for this.

this 4231 we play gives us a handicap in a league campaign as it limits our ability to accommodate a quality second striker in the team. of course if either babel or kuyt played where they do to do a job for the team rather than because they are failed strikers we wouldn't have this problem.
[/quote]

Which is the real issue.
Rafa stumbled on the Stevie Torres thing by accident, ironically through injuries. It worked and Torres and Gerrard liked it, and have since influenced matters to see it's continuation. As has been seen if either Torres or Gerrard or indeed both are missing we will keep struggling because we have no other quality up front. There have been a couple of notable exceptions to that, but don't let those exceptions kid anyone.
It was a massive mistake not bringing in a forward in the summer.


regards
[/quote]

But to be fair, the limited amount of transfer budget aint helping.

Our major ins were Johnson, replacing Arbeloa. You just cannot count on the Swiss cheese who get injured while sneezing.

Then aquilani in to replace the Al'mighty-lonso. You know you just cannot count on Lucas.

It wasnt a mistake not bringing a forward this summer, it was a mistake bringing the wrong forwards in the previous summers.

Rafa had pinned his hopes in Babel, Ngog and Voronin. Which all seems to care anything but winning a match for US.
[/quote]

I think that is a good point.
We all knew he needed a forward from even before last year when he brought in Keane, sold him and did not replace him, which you would have thought a priority.
We needed a right back, and I like Johnston, but I am sure we did not need to make a record signing. I think for the money he cost we could have had a decent right back and a decent back-up striker.


regards
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36498.msg965676#msg965676 date=1255962510]
Well we wanted players like Tevez, Negrado and Silva but the money simply wasn't there.
[/quote]

no. we just chose to spend it elsewhere
 
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965679#msg965679 date=1255962648]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36498.msg965676#msg965676 date=1255962510]
Well we wanted players like Tevez, Negrado and Silva but the money simply wasn't there.
[/quote]

no. we just chose to spend it elsewhere
[/quote]

Explain how you would would have liked the money to have been spent then Rage. I guess we're looking for a striker, RB and CM.
 
Rafa made some pretty bad mistakes in the the summer of 08/09, but he needed to be allowed to rectify them this time round. If you want to challenge every year, you need to spend money every year.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36498.msg965688#msg965688 date=1255963221]
Rafa made some pretty bad mistakes in the the summer of 08/09, but he needed to be allowed to rectify them this time round. If you want to challenge every year, you need to spend money every year.
[/quote]

I agree with that.

Even if they we're reluctant to give him extra funds they should have at least given him the Keane money to use again.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36498.msg965684#msg965684 date=1255963042]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965679#msg965679 date=1255962648]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36498.msg965676#msg965676 date=1255962510]
Well we wanted players like Tevez, Negrado and Silva but the money simply wasn't there.
[/quote]

no. we just chose to spend it elsewhere
[/quote]

Explain how you would would have liked the money to have been spent then Rage. I guess we're looking for a striker, RB and CM.
[/quote]

i'd have bought sjnider, negrado and johnson instead of aquaman and the greek.

i'd have forced the sale of doseena, voronin and lucas to pay towards the shortfall. i pick on these 3 because there was interest in all 3 of these players from elsewhere.

in all honesty rafa4pm i don't really think we're paying for our mistakes in the market this summer but rather last summer when we bought keane, riera, doseena reserve keeper and degen for over 40 million pounds.
 
I wanted Johnson for some time and I'm a fan of Aquilani so there's no real complaints from me, but I welcomed them believing there would be more money to spend. I also wanted to bring Bent in this summer. It could've been within our interest to resolve the Xabi issue much quicker - i.e after the seasons end and bought in Barry, or Sniedjer as part of the Alonso deal.

But my only real gripe is not going for Johnson when Arbeloa was reported to be unsettled and priced around £7-10M. That and our failure to shift Dossena this summer.
 
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965695#msg965695 date=1255963713]
i'd have bought sjnider, negrado and johnson instead of aquaman and the greek.

i'd have forced the sale of doseena, voronin and lucas to pay towards the shortfall. i pick on these 3 because there was interest in all 3 of these players from elsewhere..
[/quote]

Was it not the case that Rafa was reluctant to let go of dead wood because he wasn't going to get the money from their sales?

If so, that additional 11M to sign Negredo wouldn't be available to you.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36498.msg965697#msg965697 date=1255964046]
I wanted Johnson for some time and I'm a fan of Aquilani so there's no real complaints from me, but I welcomed them believing there would be more money to spend. I also wanted to bring Bent in this summer.

My only real gripe is not going for Johnson when Arbeloa was reported to be unsettled and priced around £7-10M. That and our failure to shift Dossena this summer.
[/quote]

I think we all did inc Rafa mate.

I must admit i am surprised that we didn't manage to shift Dossena (even if it meant taking a 75% loss).
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36498.msg965700#msg965700 date=1255964281]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965695#msg965695 date=1255963713]
i'd have bought sjnider, negrado and johnson instead of aquaman and the greek.

i'd have forced the sale of doseena, voronin and lucas to pay towards the shortfall. i pick on these 3 because there was interest in all 3 of these players from elsewhere..
[/quote]

Was it not the case that Rafa was reluctant to let go of dead wood because he wasn't going to get the money from their sales?

If so, that additional 11M to sign Negredo wouldn't be available to you.
[/quote]

i don't think that no. doseena's move fell through on personal terms, voronin in the end we priced too high and rafa chose to keep lucas.

i can't see us selling 3 players and the owners (however much the cunts they are) keeping the money

the damage though was really done the summer before. and in our failure to pick up johnson for half the price earlier.
 
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965695#msg965695 date=1255963713]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36498.msg965684#msg965684 date=1255963042]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965679#msg965679 date=1255962648]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36498.msg965676#msg965676 date=1255962510]
Well we wanted players like Tevez, Negrado and Silva but the money simply wasn't there.
[/quote]

no. we just chose to spend it elsewhere
[/quote]

Explain how you would would have liked the money to have been spent then Rage. I guess we're looking for a striker, RB and CM.
[/quote]

i'd have bought sjnider, negrado and johnson instead of aquaman and the greek.

i'd have forced the sale of doseena, voronin and lucas to pay towards the shortfall. i pick on these 3 because there was interest in all 3 of these players from elsewhere.

in all honesty rafa4pm i don't really think we're paying for our mistakes in the market this summer but rather last summer when we bought keane, riera, doseena reserve keeper and degen for over 40 million pounds.
[/quote]

I'll agree with you about how shocking our transfers were in 2008/9.

But come on Rage we spent far less than we made in this summer's transfer window, yet with your suggestions we would have spent even more? Do you honestly think that even if we'd sold Lucas, Doss and Voronin that Rafa would have got that money to reinvest?
 
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965704#msg965704 date=1255964621]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36498.msg965700#msg965700 date=1255964281]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965695#msg965695 date=1255963713]
i'd have bought sjnider, negrado and johnson instead of aquaman and the greek.

i'd have forced the sale of doseena, voronin and lucas to pay towards the shortfall. i pick on these 3 because there was interest in all 3 of these players from elsewhere..
[/quote]

Was it not the case that Rafa was reluctant to let go of dead wood because he wasn't going to get the money from their sales?

If so, that additional 11M to sign Negredo wouldn't be available to you.
[/quote]


i can't see us selling 3 players and the owners (however much the cunts they are) keeping the money


[/quote]

Where did the Keane money go Rage?
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36498.msg965708#msg965708 date=1255965041]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965704#msg965704 date=1255964621]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36498.msg965700#msg965700 date=1255964281]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965695#msg965695 date=1255963713]
i'd have bought sjnider, negrado and johnson instead of aquaman and the greek.

i'd have forced the sale of doseena, voronin and lucas to pay towards the shortfall. i pick on these 3 because there was interest in all 3 of these players from elsewhere..
[/quote]

Was it not the case that Rafa was reluctant to let go of dead wood because he wasn't going to get the money from their sales?

If so, that additional 11M to sign Negredo wouldn't be available to you.
[/quote]


i can't see us selling 3 players and the owners (however much the cunts they are) keeping the money


[/quote]

Where did the Keane money go Rage?
[/quote]

if rafa wants to sell a player at xmas and make it look that we can do without him then it increases the likelihood that the money we recoup will be taken back by our dodgy owners. its one thing doing that at xmas and asking in the summer for the money back and something else entirely selling 3 players in the summer and bringing in what you need to start a campaign immediately.

i think that our owners are far from perfect and indeed more often than not they put their interests ahead of the club and have clearly bitten off more than they can chew. but the players we have here are rafa's call, no one elses.
 
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965838#msg965838 date=1255983181]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36498.msg965708#msg965708 date=1255965041]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965704#msg965704 date=1255964621]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36498.msg965700#msg965700 date=1255964281]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965695#msg965695 date=1255963713]
i'd have bought sjnider, negrado and johnson instead of aquaman and the greek.

i'd have forced the sale of doseena, voronin and lucas to pay towards the shortfall. i pick on these 3 because there was interest in all 3 of these players from elsewhere..
[/quote]

Was it not the case that Rafa was reluctant to let go of dead wood because he wasn't going to get the money from their sales?

If so, that additional 11M to sign Negredo wouldn't be available to you.
[/quote]


i can't see us selling 3 players and the owners (however much the cunts they are) keeping the money


[/quote]

Where did the Keane money go Rage?
[/quote]

if rafa wants to sell a player at xmas and make it look that we can do without him then it increases the likelihood that the money we recoup will be taken back by our dodgy owners. its one thing doing that at xmas and asking in the summer for the money back and something else entirely selling 3 players in the summer and bringing in what you need to start a campaign immediately.

i think that our owners are far from perfect and indeed more often than not they put their interests ahead of the club and have clearly bitten off more than they can chew. but the players we have here are rafa's call, no one elses.

[/quote]

Not strictly true Rage (but don't let that bother you).

For instance, Rafa would never had to fork out 17m for Johnson had he been able to buy Alves 2/3 years back for 12m. That's the same Alves Barc paid 27m for two years later.
 
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965838#msg965838 date=1255983181]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=36498.msg965708#msg965708 date=1255965041]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965704#msg965704 date=1255964621]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=36498.msg965700#msg965700 date=1255964281]
[quote author=rage link=topic=36498.msg965695#msg965695 date=1255963713]
i'd have bought sjnider, negrado and johnson instead of aquaman and the greek.

i'd have forced the sale of doseena, voronin and lucas to pay towards the shortfall. i pick on these 3 because there was interest in all 3 of these players from elsewhere..
[/quote]

Was it not the case that Rafa was reluctant to let go of dead wood because he wasn't going to get the money from their sales?

If so, that additional 11M to sign Negredo wouldn't be available to you.
[/quote]


i can't see us selling 3 players and the owners (however much the cunts they are) keeping the money


[/quote]

Where did the Keane money go Rage?
[/quote]

if rafa wants to sell a player at xmas and make it look that we can do without him then it increases the likelihood that the money we recoup will be taken back by our dodgy owners. its one thing doing that at xmas and asking in the summer for the money back and something else entirely selling 3 players in the summer and bringing in what you need to start a campaign immediately.


[/quote]

So you think that Rafa would have sold Keane knowing full well that he'd not see any of that money in the summer?
 
Based purely on my own conjecture, I think yes - Rafa wanted him out of the dressing room.
 
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