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The simple explanation...

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rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member
There seems to be a common thread to the decline of great teams:

Arsenal lost David Dein and subsequently relied on Wenger to make transfer decisions and overall strategy, resulting in years of stagnation and decline.

United lost their direction after David Gill left, perhaps affecting them more than losing Ferguson.

Chelsea were successful when they had strong DOFs and the managers focused on coaching, the one exception was last summer when they briefly gave free reign to Tuchel, who then proceeded to quickly crash and burn.

On the contrary, Manchester City to this day maintain a clear structure with the DOF and the manager each focusing on their own purview – even last summer Pep has been overruled when he wanted Kane as opposed to Haaland.

Even during our Rodgers era, we seemed to do OK when the "transfer committee" was still influential and became comically inept when Brendan clawed more power for himself and started presiding over transfer decisions.

So, is the simple explanation for our decline is that Klopp (as well as Lijnders) has been given too much power to the detriment of the team?
 
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Exactly how many failed players first teamers do you think Klopp and Lijnders have signed?
 
To be fair, I think Rurik’s point has merit - there’s clearly something not right behind the scene at the minute.

Whether that’s to do with transfers or not isn’t really the issue - we’ve lost numerous people across a number of different departments - that’s not going to help.

Maybe there is, or close to, an agreement with a new owner that will want their own structure/people in place.
 

I don’t understand why this is controversial. Klopp is obviously one of the all-time great managers. Doesn’t mean he is a great or even a decent DOF. And with more power comes more responsibilities, distractions, conflicted interests, pressure from multiple sides. The system where the manager can at times be overruled on key personnel decisions (i.e. Salah was initially Klopp’s 2nd choice after Brandt, as far as we know - “the data guys” “convinced” him) seems healthy to me, the one where one man decides everything not so much.
 
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In reply to StevieM

Yes but it is extremely naive and oversimplistic to think it’s all Klopp’s fault. There’s definitely something going on which nobody knows for sure but does anyone really think Klopp’s the power-mad or control freak type ?

Come on. In almost every interview after a successful season, first thing he gives credit to is his team. I don’t think Klopp’s the control freak type. His history in previous clubs speaks for itself.

Maybe he’s been forced into doing things he has no control over or certainly does not feel comfortable doing and he’s gotta suck it up for the greater good or bite the bullet to protect his players and team. Who knows.

But when there’s an exodus of his trusted staff, all within a short time frame, it’s clear they’re jumping ship, which means something’s not right. But I don’t think Klopp’s the culprit. In fact i think it’s to do with politics with FSG.

But let’s not put two and two and create fake news. It’s how slander starts. And I dislike people who start them.

Klopp has his flaws, who doesn’t (!!), but to even hint that he’s all hands on deck or power mad type of person is just pure foolishness.
 
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In reply to StevieM

Yes but it is extremely naive and oversimplistic to think it’s all Klopp’s fault. There’s definitely something going on which nobody knows for sure but does anyone really think Klopp’s the power-mad or control freak type ?

Come on. In almost every interview after a successful season, first thing he gives credit to is his team. I don’t think Klopp’s the control freak type. His history in previous clubs speaks for itself.

Maybe he’s been forced into doing things he has no control over or certainly does not feel comfortable. Who knows.

But let’s not put two and two and create fake news. It’s how slander starts. And I dislike people who start them.

That’s not what I said. Was Wenger a power-mad control freak type? Was Tuchel? (OK Rodgers maybe a little 🙂). When the club doesn’t provide a strong and stable structure and key decisions still have to be made, sometimes people who shouldn’t be making those decisions step into the role, often with best intentions. But good intentions don’t mean much in a ruthless world like football or business - your company will still suffer if the decision-making structure is not right.

I’m still curious to know why Edwards and Ward and other “data guys” left. Suspect we won’t know for quite a while.
 
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Yes so unless we know the truth I suggest we stop creating these type of threads every bloody week because while I think Klopp could’ve made much better tactical decisions w the team, I actually feel for him too.

Cos he’s obviously facing a lot of pressure and seems overwhelmed or helpless on how to resolve them.

You’re right in that he seems to lack support from higher up. And that’s down to FSG.

And btw Wenger and Tuchel are control freaks. Klopp’s nowhere like them. I wouldn’t go for a pint with those two for example.
 
My guess from my own experience is that backroom staff begin to leave when they are aware that new owners with their own teams are about to move in. Obvious speculation on my part with regard to Liverpool FC but I have been in these corporate situations in the past.
 
We're going to know far more about this period in a few years. Until then we're only really going off speculation. It goes without saying really but theres multiple factors for the drop off this season.

I suppose the simple question here is would the triumvirate of Edwards, Klopp and Gordon all have agreed to sign Nunez, Gakpo, extend Hendersons contract, and prioritise Bellingham at the expense of nearly everything else. Honestly, I don't think they would.

At some point there was a shift away a successful formula. It started with Thiago. Jota then arrived, who is different to both Firmino and Mane, but was instantly able to find success in the system, so zero questions were raised. Minamino was signed after putting in one decent performance against us in the CL. That was a bit surprising, as it didn't point to a player we had been scouting and had done a deep dive on. You could explain it as a pragmatic, cheap risk free punt, which it also was, and even rival fans were backing the signing, but maybe it was further evidence of that shift towards Klopp

Diaz was a signing that was more in line with the original ethos and was an ideal long term Mane replacement. It was and is a great piece of business. If memory serves Ward handled the transfer with Edwards still overseeing. All looked well.

Fast forward further and Nunez and Gakpo are signed. Klopp was seemingly convinced of Nunez after watching him play against us from the touch line, which had flashbacks to Minamino, only this time the risk levels were on another level. Personally I like Nunez, but I remain confused about what the plan was to ever integrate him into this side. And then there's Gakpo. Who the fuck knows where this one fits in.

Amongst all that there were clashes between not extending Wijnaldum and Mane, but choosing to back Henderson and Salah.

I'm not signaling all of these out for criticism, but taken as a whole the collection of decisions is simply worse than what originally built the side. The signings of Mane, Salah, VVD, Fabinho, Allison were so razor focused they could give you a paper cut just by thinking about them. That's what we have to compare recent decisions to and they've been coming up short.

You can argue we have been attempting to evolve and morph the side as teams adapted to us and that is fine. However in signing Thiago, and allowing Henderson and Fabinho to burn out, the club is guilty of dismantling the engine room which everything else be based upon. You cannot evolve and tweak a side when the basic pillars that hold the system together are crumbling. The average fan will tell you that down the pub, so why have so many people who know better neglected it?


As for the future, there is too much uncertainty around the club to see a reasonable step forward until the ownership issue is resolved. Hopefully that is in the summer and gives time and resources to develop this side, but it's going to be another year or two of transition, and you have to wonder if the likes of Salah, Allison and VVD will be content with that. I think Ali and VVD are essential to get us back into the CL places, whereas Salah is showing little of being the player than can drag us through games when things aren't clicking, which there will be plenty of times to come. The question is will we have the team in place to give us confidence we can find the next Mo Salah? Announcing a Ward replacement now would give hope, but it's likely our top targets for a DOF role are going to be having doubts about joining a club with the ownership issue up in the air. The club is going to drift aimlessly until that is resolved.

I feel bad for Klopp because he has to deal with all the media scrutiny alone. Its clear there's been significant collective and strategic failings to reach this point. The man deserves continued support, but he also needs some fresh ideas on how to get the best of the players he has.
 
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There seems to be a common thread to the decline of great teams:


So, is the simple explanation for our decline is that Klopp (as well as Lijnders) has been given too much power to the detriment of the team?

I think we fans know what the issue is but for what ever reason we like to find a million other excuses why the team is shit this season. You can blame Klopp for holding onto players but it was only last summer we finished just short of doing something historic. We got Nunez because Mane wanted to leave, and we were not going to pay him £300k per week. We get Nunez, Fab C and Ramsey and the net transfer was 10-15m. There was no money left for a decent MF
Come winter Jota, Bobby and Diaz are all out we have the numbers in MF, the owners only gave him £40m, he chose to get Gakpo believing the players coming back from the WC would be rejuvenated. They wouldn't release anymore money. After he got Gakpo signing he told the world, if he is to get another player he has to sell.

The issue is the lack of investment from FSG. Now if Klopp was given £100m in the winter window, don't people think he would have got a MF as well, and would we be languishing in Midtable? Fans must show their anger at FSG, this will either force them to leave sooner or invest.
 
I agree with Rurik - it's not about bad players we have signed but more than we haven't signed enough players clearly

Like we wanted Nunes and Klopp said no and now we sign him a year later and he bossed us yesterday
 
I agree with Rurik - it's not about bad players we have signed but more than we haven't signed enough players clearly

Like we wanted Nunes and Klopp said no and now we sign him a year later and he bossed us yesterday
It’s also holding onto players past their peak.
 
Great posts by a lot of posters in this thread. Also, I think if COVID had not happened, my guess is the same structure would have continued.

I remember reading somewhere that the original plan was to sell Mane, Salah when they were 28-29 to Madrid, Barca, PSG and use that money to create the next great team. COVID struck and our transfer plans went up in smoke. Also, clubs like United and Spurs used the low interest rates to take out loans to invest in players whereas we went the opposite direction. No complaints from my end for FSG on that aspect.

Suddenly, we had reduced budget, our original transfer approach was completely in tatters. I think that was the point of divergence between Klopp and the data folks. Data folks wanted to sell everyone and create a new team whereas Klopp and gang wanted to extend the life of the existing team with additions like Thiago and contract extensions. Because of the reduced transfer budget, every mistake we made was magnified.

I am disappointed at the lack of midfield purchases we have made but I would rather put it on hold and finish midtable until we have some clarity on our transfer process. We also need to get to the bottom of our injury list. Konate is potentially a great player. But what is the point if he is not available half the time.
 
Would it be better if there are ppl at the top who knows more about the sport? If I'm not wrong, only Peter Moore (our ex-CEO) has relevant experience/interest? Current CEO Billy Hogan's expertise is in the marketing side of things.

Mike Gordon, described as "the main link between the powers that be at Liverpool owners Fenway Sports Group and Reds boss Jurgen Klopp" stepped back last year too - which is a strange/less than ideal timing given the number of backroom departures + with the need to rebuild the squad.
 
We're going to know far more about this period in a few years. Until then we're only really going off speculation. It goes without saying really but theres multiple factors for the drop off this season.

I suppose the simple question here is would the triumvirate of Edwards, Klopp and Gordon all have agreed to sign Nunez, Gakpo, extend Hendersons contract, and prioritise Bellingham at the expense of nearly everything else. Honestly, I don't think they would.

At some point there was a shift away a successful formula. It started with Thiago. Jota then arrived, who is different to both Firmino and Mane, but was instantly able to find success in the system, so zero questions were raised. Minamino was signed after putting in one decent performance against us in the CL. That was a bit surprising, as it didn't point to a player we had been scouting and had done a deep dive on. You could explain it as a pragmatic, cheap risk free punt, which it also was, and even rival fans were backing the signing, but maybe it was further evidence of that shift towards Klopp

Diaz was a signing that was more in line with the original ethos and was an ideal long term Mane replacement. It was and is a great piece of business. If memory serves Ward handled the transfer with Edwards still overseeing. All looked well.

Fast forward further and Nunez and Gakpo are signed. Klopp was seemingly convinced of Nunez after watching him play against us from the touch line, which had flashbacks to Minamino, only this time the risk levels were on another level. Personally I like Nunez, but I remain confused about what the plan was to ever integrate him into this side. And then there's Gakpo. Who the fuck knows where this one fits in.

Amongst all that there were clashes between not extending Wijnaldum and Mane, but choosing to back Henderson and Salah.

I'm not signaling all of these out for criticism, but taken as a whole the collection of decisions is simply worse than what originally built the side. The signings of Mane, Salah, VVD, Fabinho, Allison were so razor focused they could give you a paper cut just by thinking about them. That's what we have to compare recent decisions to and they've been coming up short.

You can argue we have been attempting to evolve and morph the side as teams adapted to us and that is fine. However in signing Thiago, and allowing Henderson and Fabinho to burn out, the club is guilty of dismantling the engine room which everything else be based upon. You cannot evolve and tweak a side when the basic pillars that hold the system together are crumbling. The average fan will tell you that down the pub, so why have so many people who know better neglected it?


As for the future, there is too much uncertainty around the club to see a reasonable step forward until the ownership issue is resolved. Hopefully that is in the summer and gives time and resources to develop this side, but it's going to be another year or two of transition, and you have to wonder if the likes of Salah, Allison and VVD will be content with that. I think Ali and VVD are essential to get us back into the CL places, whereas Salah is showing little of being the player than can drag us through games when things aren't clicking, which there will be plenty of times to come. The question is will we have the team in place to give us confidence we can find the next Mo Salah? Announcing a Ward replacement now would give hope, but it's likely our top targets for a DOF role are going to be having doubts about joining a club with the ownership issue up in the air. The club is going to drift aimlessly until that is resolved.

I feel bad for Klopp because he has to deal with all the media scrutiny alone. Its clear there's been significant collective and strategic failings to reach this point. The man deserves continued support, but he also needs some fresh ideas on how to get the best of the players he has.

You’re on fire lately, mate. Another banger of a post.
 
Speaking of fresh ideas, am I imagining it or was Lijnders nowhere to be seen on the bench yesterday? At least the TV cameras showed Klopp consulting with Krawietz and at certain emotional moments (like when we conceded the 3rd goal) he seemed to seek support from Milly who was sitting directly behind him, staring intently at the game.

This might be a pure fantasy, but if I’m Klopp I would actually consider asking Milner to take charge of a few training sessions (in place of Lijnders) before the derby and maybe listening to his tactical ideas as well. It’s not as crazy as it sounds, Klopp himself started as a player-manager (albeit at a much lower level than Liverpool), we had Kenny do it successfully for us too. If you have the aptitude for management (as Milly does, I’m pretty sure), you can do it already while playing.

I’m 100% certain if Milner was entrusted with an assistant role for a few days, we would not be outrun by any opponent in the next game and anyone selected would fight for the shirt - a bare minimum that has been conspicuously missing for most of this season.
 
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The simple explanation is Klopp built a 'win now team because he thought he was fucking off at the end of his contract.

There was little to no thought put into succession planning and a number of supporters including some on here accepted it.

Edwards left because the data told him there was a mighty crash about to happen.

Our owners accepted it because they were coining it in right left and centre until the pandemic hit.
 
On a sidenote, Ward linked with Ajax - but apparently he is "unable to join another club for the next 12 months following his exit", unless the relevant clubs can come to an agreement.

 
There seems to be a common thread to the decline of great teams:

Arsenal lost David Dein and subsequently relied on Wenger to make transfer decisions and overall strategy, resulting in years of stagnation and decline.

United lost their direction after David Gill left, perhaps affecting them more than losing Ferguson.

Chelsea were successful when they had strong DOFs and the managers focused on coaching, the one exception was last summer when they briefly gave free reign to Tuchel, who then proceeded to quickly crash and burn.

On the contrary, Manchester City to this day maintain a clear structure with the DOF and the manager each focusing on their own purview – even last summer Pep has been overruled when he wanted Kane as opposed to Haaland.

Even during our Rodgers era, we seemed to do OK when the "transfer committee" was still influential and became comically inept when Brendan clawed more power for himself and started presiding over transfer decisions.

So, is the simple explanation for our decline is that Klopp (as well as Lijnders) has been given too much power to the detriment of the team?
Nah I don't think so. You are also assuming that each club gave full (or far more than previously) power to the managers without oversight or scouting direction.

City are clearly in decline and the only difference to previous regimes is they have had the coffers to throw shit at the wall until something sticks (and that option may now be less viable).

Like every empire that ever rose to prominence - time will eventually have its way with you when decisions just don't work out.
 
That’s not what I said. Was Wenger a power-mad control freak type? Was Tuchel? (OK Rodgers maybe a little 🙂). When the club doesn’t provide a strong and stable structure and key decisions still have to be made, sometimes people who shouldn’t be making those decisions step into the role, often with best intentions. But good intentions don’t mean much in a ruthless world like football or business - your company will still suffer if the decision-making structure is not right.

I’m still curious to know why Edwards and Ward and other “data guys” left. Suspect we won’t know for quite a while.
Personally I fell there are far more factors influencing our demise, this season of all seasons, to make a judgement call like that. And even more so to make a comparison with previous regimes at other clubs.
The factors leading to a downturn, in almost all cases, can not be equated and paralleled to our situation. Had we not had last season, had we not had the worst injury list in the PL by far (yet again, and this is by far the major reason for our demise, far beyond anything else) and had we bought a couple of midfielders last Summer/this January then we may not be in this situation.

The seems to a case of looking for something/anything to blame, rather than the obvious, no matter how obscure.
 
........At some point there was a shift away a successful formula. It started with Thiago. Jota then arrived, who is different to both Firmino and Mane, but was instantly able to find success in the system, so zero questions were raised. Minamino was signed after putting in one decent performance against us in the CL. That was a bit surprising, as it didn't point to a player we had been scouting and had done a deep dive on. You could explain it as a pragmatic, cheap risk free punt, which it also was, and even rival fans were backing the signing, but maybe it was further evidence of that shift towards Klopp
Thiago to my mind is a simple explanation, A world class player, with huge experience, costing what an average players' package would, to maybe keep us at the top whilst we get us through a transformation to a new playing style and rejuvenation.

How often have we read on this forum, and in the press, that we have been 'found out' our system, formation was going to evolve so Jota was not a surprise and likely in line with the move away from the successful formations of the last few seasons.

We know our scouting dept have files on hundreds of players and Minamino was a cheap pick up to strengthen the squad. It was an entirely reasonable transfer, I don't see any of this as evidence of a move to Klopp having more say/power in transfers - more likely it's evidence of a transition away from our previous style of play, we have to evolve and it's highly unlikely we'd be able to find like-for-like replacements for key players such as Mane, Firmino and Salah.

Diaz was a signing that was more in line with the original ethos and was an ideal long term Mane replacement. It was and is a great piece of business. If memory serves Ward handled the transfer with Edwards still overseeing. All looked well.
So Ward and Edwards handled this but had less input into the signings of Jota, Minamino etc.? That's not logical mate.

Fast forward further and Nunez and Gakpo are signed. Klopp was seemingly convinced of Nunez after watching him play against us from the touch line, which had flashbacks to Minamino, only this time the risk levels were on another level. Personally I like Nunez, but I remain confused about what the plan was to ever integrate him into this side. And then there's Gakpo. Who the fuck knows where this one fits in.
Nunez was/is highly rated and was surely on the radar for multiple teams. It's likely his transfer came about simply because we were looking for a striker with pace, had a large file on him and he (or someone similar, a striker with real pace a la Mane + Mo) was already in our planning.
Gakpo is a strange one - but it's likely he's being looked at long term and we're not privy to what that strategy is - likely a move away from the tried and tested of the previous generation. It's clear he's a good player - just not so clear how he fits into THIS team, though whatever the plan was, undoubtedly he would have had a far gentler integration without our horrendous injury list.

Amongst all that there were clashes between not extending Wijnaldum and Mane, but choosing to back Henderson and Salah.
This seems to be a case of not ignoring the players' wishes (for whatever reason Mane was clearly set on a move and Gini was after more money whilst also being in the Mo & Hendo bracket) and starting the rejuvenation of the squad but with fans disagreeing with the timing and the first players out of the door.

I'm not signaling all of these out for criticism, but taken as a whole the collection of decisions is simply worse than what originally built the side. The signings of Mane, Salah, VVD, Fabinho, Allison were so razor focused they could give you a paper cut just by thinking about them. That's what we have to compare recent decisions to and they've been coming up short.
But this is ignoring the fact that in some cases they became far far more than they were judged to be at the time of their transfers. Either good judgement, good luck or some of each. All transfers come with risks, even those costing £100m plus (most of whom, going by that Top 10 list posted recently, have been failures).

You can argue we have been attempting to evolve and morph the side as teams adapted to us and that is fine. However in signing Thiago, and allowing Henderson and Fabinho to burn out, the club is guilty of dismantling the engine room which everything else be based upon. You cannot evolve and tweak a side when the basic pillars that hold the system together are crumbling. The average fan will tell you that down the pub, so why have so many people who know better neglected it?
As I've said previously, I disagree on Thiago being a mistake and virtually nobody predicted Fabinho's form dropping off a cliff ... Hendo however is the biggest error by far (compounded by not investing in a midfield rejuvenation early enough, though if it is because we're waiting on Bellingham then that is at least partly an acceptable mitigation).

As for the future, there is too much uncertainty around the club to see a reasonable step forward until the ownership issue is resolved. Hopefully that is in the summer and gives time and resources to develop this side, but it's going to be another year or two of transition, and you have to wonder if the likes of Salah, Allison and VVD will be content with that. I think Ali and VVD are essential to get us back into the CL places, whereas Salah is showing little of being the player than can drag us through games when things aren't clicking, which there will be plenty of times to come.
Those players aren't an issue at all IMHO - read their recent statements of being happy and content with life at LFC and living in Liverpool. Salah may be sold but considering his salary and age who would buy him at anything like making it worth our while?
Totally agree on the ownership issue - this would resolve so many issues.

The question is will we have the team in place to give us confidence we can find the next Mo Salah? Announcing a Ward replacement now would give hope, but it's likely our top targets for a DOF role are going to be having doubts about joining a club with the ownership issue up in the air. The club is going to drift aimlessly until that is resolved.
Without knowing what's going on behind the scenes - we don't wash our laundry in public - it's impossible to forecast. Clearly though this position is going to be related to the ownership resolution.

I feel bad for Klopp because he has to deal with all the media scrutiny alone. Its clear there's been significant collective and strategic failings to reach this point. The man deserves continued support, but he also needs some fresh ideas on how to get the best of the players he has.
Abso-fucking-lutely! Total support.
 
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Great posts by a lot of posters in this thread. Also, I think if COVID had not happened, my guess is the same structure would have continued.

I remember reading somewhere that the original plan was to sell Mane, Salah when they were 28-29 to Madrid, Barca, PSG and use that money to create the next great team. COVID struck and our transfer plans went up in smoke. Also, clubs like United and Spurs used the low interest rates to take out loans to invest in players whereas we went the opposite direction. No complaints from my end for FSG on that aspect.

Suddenly, we had reduced budget, our original transfer approach was completely in tatters. I think that was the point of divergence between Klopp and the data folks. Data folks wanted to sell everyone and create a new team whereas Klopp and gang wanted to extend the life of the existing team with additions like Thiago and contract extensions. Because of the reduced transfer budget, every mistake we made was magnified.

I am disappointed at the lack of midfield purchases we have made but I would rather put it on hold and finish midtable until we have some clarity on our transfer process. We also need to get to the bottom of our injury list. Konate is potentially a great player. But what is the point if he is not available half the time.
Absolutely spot on.

We have unfortunately been the victim of circumstance, that seems to evade some posters on here and thousands of fans outside, just looking to apportion blame.

Covid, unsustainable injury lists, incredible 2021/22 season, 2022/23 being the weirdest in history with a shortened summer followed by the mid-season WC. An unfortunate confluence.
 
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