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The Question: Is three at the back the way forward for Liverpool?

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iseered

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The Question: Is three at the back the way forward for Liverpool?

Kenny Dalglish's Liverpool and Steve Bruce's Sunderland have both made eloquent recent cases for the old ploy of three centre-backs and a diamond formation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/feb/08/the-question-jonathan-wilson-liverpool

It was a strangely retro weekend in the Premier League, with scorelines from the 1950s and tactics from the 1990s. Three at the back has rather gone out of fashion over the past decade, but it has returned with a startling suddenness and effectiveness over the past week. Liverpool played with three at the back (by which I mean a system with three centre-backs, irrespective of the positioning of the full-backs) against Stoke last Wednesday, Sunderland used it against Stoke on Saturday, and then Liverpool used it against Chelsea on Sunday.

It was that use at Stamford Bridge that was most successful, although whether it would have been had Chelsea stuck to the way they have been playing for most of the past seven years and fielded a 4-3-3 rather than a diamond is debatable – then again, Kenny Dalglish probably would not have fielded his 3-5-1-1 against a 4-3-3.

The reason the deployment of three central defenders has largely fallen out of use is that it is set up to deal with two central strikers. Two of the centre-backs mark, with the other as a spare man to provide cover. Facing a lone central striker formation (most commonly 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1), one of the centre-backs marks, there is a spare man, and then there is a redundant player. Worse, the wing-backs who are supposed to provide attacking width end up pinned back, dealing with a wide forward.

Of course, there are circumstances in which having two spare men is desirable. If a team have little intention of attacking and are looking for a 0-0 draw, then it makes a lot of sense to have two extra players plugging gaps. That was how, for instance, Estudiantes played at Velez Sarsfield in October, when they successfully got the draw they wanted to preserve their lead at the top of the Apertura. Uruguay did something similar against France at the World Cup, as did Algeria against England (although Wayne Rooney played so high, England were approaching a 4-4-2) and, slightly less successfully, North Korea did it against Brazil.

Liverpool's outlook against Chelsea was cautious, but it was not that negative. Its use, in fact, was little different to how the formation was employed in the 90s; it was there to combat an old-fashioned variant on 4-4-2. On Sunday, Chelsea played, as they had at Sunderland last Tuesday, with two central strikers and Nicolas Anelka tucked behind at the point of a midfield diamond. Anelka was superb at the Stadium of Light, but Sunderland's midfield – especially in the absence of Lee Cattermole – has a tendency to be very open.

Against Liverpool, Anelka found himself up against the perpetually under-rated Lucas Leiva and was negated, while the three of Jamie Carragher, Martin Skrtel and Daniel Agger neutered Didier Drogba and Fernando Torres so successfully that they managed only one meaningful shot between them (and that a chance bestowed not created as Maxi Rodríguez squandered possession). Torres, in fact, had only 29 touches of the ball in the 66 minutes before he was substituted.

Where Liverpool really won the battle, though, was in midfield. Against Stoke, Dalglish had played a 3-4-2-1, with a square of midfielders in the middle – two in defensive positions and two attacking. Against Chelsea, he tilted the square to become a diamond, matching Chelsea's midfield shape exactly, so as well as Lucas picking up Anelka, Steven Gerrard dealt with Frank Lampard, Maxi matched up to Michael Essien and Raul Meireles faced Mikel John Obi. Only Maxi could be said not to have won his individual duel decisively.

At the same time, Chelsea faced the problem the diamond will always have against a side playing with three centre-backs plus wing-backs. The great flaw of the diamond is that it lacks attacking width; the full-backs have to get forward and if they do not, everything becomes funnelled through the player at the diamond's tip.

José Bosingwa and Ashley Cole are ideally equipped to offer that attacking threat wide, but on Sunday they weren't able to get forward. Rather than meeting a conventional full-back 30 or 40 yards from the opponents' goal, they were engaging with Martin Kelly and Glen Johnson on halfway, and so only rarely got into areas to offer a creative outlet.

That problem for diamonds is even worse against a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1, or even a 4-4-2 with wide midfielders who play high up the pitch, as the full-back is left with a choice of pushing on, hoping his side retain possession long enough that his absences from defensive duties do not matter, or sitting back offering no attacking width. The diamond tends to prosper only as a defensive formation, or in a culture where so many teams field a diamond that the lack of width does not matter because everybody has the same weakness. It is notable, for instance, that in Serie A this season, where 4-3-1-2, a variant of the diamond, predominates, Milan's three defeats have come against Cesena and Juventus, sides with attacking width, and Roma, who had Jérémy Menez pull wide from his usual central trequartista role.

Other teams may see Liverpool's success and decide to copy that against Chelsea. Even when they played a 4-3-3, it had been apparent for a while that blocking in Cole (something Kieran Richardson did superbly in Sunderland's 3-0 win at Stamford Bridge) severely restricted their attacking options. It may also be that, following the examples of Liverpool and Sunderland, opposing sides opt for three centre-backs against Stoke City.

Both Liverpool and Sunderland presumably made the decision to try to add height to the side. Liverpool could have come unstuck with Stoke fielding a lone central striker in John Carew, and the need for Agger to step up and become an auxiliary midfielder perhaps explains why they were significantly less fluent against Stoke than they have been in probably every other game since Dalglish's return.

The Sunderland centre-back pairing of Anton Ferdinand and Titus Bramble, meanwhile, have been bullied at times in the air this season, a situation not helped by Craig Gordon's lack of command of his box. The addition of John Mensah – who would surely be a first choice were he ever fit for more than a game at a time – was designed to give Sunderland an additional solidity and, set-plays aside (a fairly big aside, admittedly), the tactic worked, combating not merely Sunderland's relative aerial weakness but also the lack of a ball-winner in midfield, with both Cattermole and David Meyler injured. Sunderland's problem was that they conceded too many free-kicks in dangerous areas, and then got too deep in defending them, meaning Gordon, never the most commanding goalkeeper for all his shot-stopping abilities, was too often hemmed in (and, of course, they got the rough end of offside decisions for Stoke's first two goals).

For both Liverpool and Sunderland, it seems likely the switch to three centre-backs was a temporary measure undertaken in specific circumstances. It would be a major surprise if Sunderland were to use a similar tactic against Tottenham, or Liverpool against Wigan, on Saturday. That said, given Liverpool's lack of attacking width – and glut of good centre-backs – it is perhaps something to which Dalglish will be more open than other managers.

If nothing else, though, Liverpool and Sunderland have shown in the past week that there is still a place for three centre-backs in certain circumstances, and that it's often a good idea to set opponents a puzzle they have forgotten how to solve. It may, in a strange way, be that Dalglish's time away from day-to-day management, far from restricting his tactical options, has actually broadened them.
 
I don't think it is. Kenny has said that 3-5-2 is most suited to what playing personal he has at his disposal at the moment.
 
Yeah, as I said in a different thread, I think it's just because we don't have a decent DM at the club. I'm sure this formation won't last past the summer.
 
The interesting bit in that article for me was the breakdown of the midfield duties. Bearing in mind how we're using Maxi at the moment, I can now see why Kenny wanted to sign Charlie Adam in January.
 
It might remain an option for certain games but I expect our main formation to be some variation of 4-3-3 next season.
 
We're playing this formation because we don't have natural wingers and our fullbacks offer us width. Kenny won't use it permanently but if it ain't broken..........
 
It makes me giggle the way divs speak about 'formations' as if they are some magic formula to stick to during a match.

Asking the likes of Kelly, Johnson, Agger to stick to some positional plan would be folly in the extreme, no?

I'm sure KD would merely remind them of their responsibilities when opponents have the ball and give them full rein to do what they do best when in possession.

It's why we've started to defend and attack as a team, players allowed to do what they instinctively know. Formations pffft..
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=44144.msg1282232#msg1282232 date=1297240985]
It makes me giggle the way divs speak about 'formations' as if they are some magic formula to stick to during a match.

Asking the likes of Kelly, Johnson, Agger to stick to some positional plan would be folly in the extreme, no?

I'm sure KD would merely remind them of their responsibilities when opponents have the ball and give them full rein to do what they do best when in possession.

It's why we've started to defend and attack as a team, players allowed to do what they instinctively know. Formations pffft..
[/quote]

Who's KD?

kd-lang.gif
 
[quote author=Modo link=topic=44144.msg1282233#msg1282233 date=1297241154]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=44144.msg1282232#msg1282232 date=1297240985]
It makes me giggle the way divs speak about 'formations' as if they are some magic formula to stick to during a match.

Asking the likes of Kelly, Johnson, Agger to stick to some positional plan would be folly in the extreme, no?

I'm sure KD would merely remind them of their responsibilities when opponents have the ball and give them full rein to do what they do best when in possession.

It's why we've started to defend and attack as a team, players allowed to do what they instinctively know. Formations pffft..
[/quote]

Who's KD?

kd-lang.gif

[/quote]

Confused Swede: KD = Kenny Dalglish = King Kenny 😉
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=44144.msg1282232#msg1282232 date=1297240985]
It makes me giggle the way divs speak about 'formations' as if they are some magic formula to stick to during a match.

Asking the likes of Kelly, Johnson, Agger to stick to some positional plan would be folly in the extreme, no?

I'm sure KD would merely remind them of their responsibilities when opponents have the ball and give them full rein to do what they do best when in possession.

It's why we've started to defend and attack as a team, players allowed to do what they instinctively know. Formations pffft..
[/quote]

I don't really understand what is the point you are making? Formations are not relevant when talking about how a team plays? I agree some people often look too much into formations and don't understand it's the tactics behind it that really decide how the team plays in the given match. You hear people saying 'no we can't play 4-3-3 against Mancs away it's just too attacking' etc.

However, formation still is the backbone for those tactics. In this case we are playing with three CB's and wing backs and it's so different to our normal formation that it makes a huge difference on how we play. The formation has imo solved two big problems in our game: the lack of a proper DM and the lack of natural wingers. It also allows us to play to the strengths of our two excellent CM's Ming and Gerrard.
 
I think you must be a 'div' then Akakabooto... the players just run around doing what they instinctively know and occasionally KD just stands on the sidelines flashing a Paul Ince style notepad with "Shoot!" or "Defend!" scribbled on it in case they need reminding.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=44144.msg1282245#msg1282245 date=1297242273]
I think you must be a 'div' then Akakabooto... the players just run around doing what they instinctively know and occasionally KD just stands on the sidelines flashing a Paul Ince style notepad with "Shoot!" or "Defend!" scribbled on it in case they need reminding.
[/quote]

It wouldn't be much use having anything on a notepad with you would it? You have to read all for understanding. Failure to read all would mark out the div in a person. Try using a finger to run along the words in each line.
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=44144.msg1282250#msg1282250 date=1297242560]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=44144.msg1282245#msg1282245 date=1297242273]
I think you must be a 'div' then Akakabooto... the players just run around doing what they instinctively know and occasionally KD just stands on the sidelines flashing a Paul Ince style notepad with "Shoot!" or "Defend!" scribbled on it in case they need reminding.
[/quote]

It wouldn't be much use having anything on a notepad with you would it? You have to read all for understanding. Failure to read all would mark out the div in a person. Try using a finger to run along the words in each line.
[/quote]

Sorry, I didn't understand that.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=44144.msg1282252#msg1282252 date=1297242818]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=44144.msg1282250#msg1282250 date=1297242560]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=44144.msg1282245#msg1282245 date=1297242273]
I think you must be a 'div' then Akakabooto... the players just run around doing what they instinctively know and occasionally KD just stands on the sidelines flashing a Paul Ince style notepad with "Shoot!" or "Defend!" scribbled on it in case they need reminding.
[/quote]

It wouldn't be much use having anything on a notepad with you would it? You have to read all for understanding. Failure to read all would mark out the div in a person. Try using a finger to run along the words in each line.
[/quote]

Sorry, I didn't understand that.
[/quote]

Less haste, more speed I guess. But enough of life lessons.

I'm genuinely interested in how these formations and patterns are applied. I'm obviously missing something.

What would Kenny have been saying to those that make up the 5, about how they should play it to make it work?
 
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=44144.msg1282263#msg1282263 date=1297243262]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=44144.msg1282252#msg1282252 date=1297242818]
[quote author=jexykrodic link=topic=44144.msg1282250#msg1282250 date=1297242560]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=44144.msg1282245#msg1282245 date=1297242273]
I think you must be a 'div' then Akakabooto... the players just run around doing what they instinctively know and occasionally KD just stands on the sidelines flashing a Paul Ince style notepad with "Shoot!" or "Defend!" scribbled on it in case they need reminding.
[/quote]

It wouldn't be much use having anything on a notepad with you would it? You have to read all for understanding. Failure to read all would mark out the div in a person. Try using a finger to run along the words in each line.
[/quote]

Sorry, I didn't understand that.
[/quote]



I'm genuinely interested in how these formations and patterns are applied. I'm obviously missing something.


What would Kenny have been saying to those that make up the 5, about how they should play it to make it work?
[/quote]

It isn't rocket science, they play practice matches during the week, using formations they're going to use. Kenny and Clarke will be advising the players, what line they should hold etc.
 
http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/6104189/liverpool-use-three-man-backline-unique-premier-league

soc_liverpool_360.gif



The back three has yet to be tested with the logical formation to expose it -- a side playing a forward three spread across the park. Stoke played one man up front, and Liverpool responded to the surplus at the back (you don't need three center backs marking one striker) by having Daniel Agger bring the ball forward into the midfield. That day the Liverpool shape looked like a square in midfield with Lucas and Fabio Aurelio holding, and Raul Meireles and Steven Gerrard driving forward. For the game against Chelsea, the four "tilted" to cancel out Ancelotti's diamond with an identical situation in the middle of the pitch.

Some teams in the World Cup had success with three at the back when playing defensive football (see New Zealand stifling Italy, Uruguay doing the same to France and North Korea holding Brazil until late in the game). Liverpool's tactics against Chelsea were much more cautious than the free-flowing football we expect under Dalglish.

There's nothing wrong with that, however, when combined with a willingness to score through the use of plenty of midfield runners. It was Gerrard and Meireles who got into the final third to combine for the winner, while Gerrard had earlier set up Maxi Rodriguez for an open goal that was somehow missed. Besides, the Reds' defensive display was excellent, as they limited Chelsea to one shot on target in the game, an attempt from a narrow angle from Florent Malouda that Pepe Reina blocked without needing to move.

How regularly this system will be used going forward remains unclear. The biggest question is how his two new signings, Andy Carroll and Luis Suarez, will fit into the side, though Napoli has shown how to play a 3-4-2-1 with a central striker and a wide attacker this season.

When Dalglish took over at Liverpool in January, some predicted he would be a tactical dinosaur considering he hadn't managed in the Premier League for more than 10 years. His use of a back three does hark back to the period around the turn of the century when English clubs were obsessed with 3-5-2 formations. But then, there's nothing wrong with using a system that was successful in a previous era. When Greece stunned the world to win the European Championships in 2004 with a strict man-marking system, UEFA technical director Andy Roxburgh famously stated that "the Greeks had posed a problem the rest of the world had forgotten how to solve."

Is a back three the same concept? That's the thing with tactics -- rather than it being a continual progression with the newest craze capable of beating all previous systems, each formation has its strengths and weaknesses. It's a bit like rock-paper-scissors. Paper beats rock, and rock beats scissors, but that doesn't mean that paper beats scissors. Quite the reverse. In tactics, being one era behind is a disaster, but being more than one behind might be strangely useful.

Not that Dalglish is a man of the past. His triumphant, fan-driven return to management was compared to Kevin Keegan's ultimately unsuccessful second stint at Newcastle in 2008. Keegan, however, admitted that he "hadn't watched a live game for three years" -- a particular problem as when he arrived at Newcastle's training ground, "I didn't know all the players, I'll be honest with you." In stark contrast, Dalglish has been actively involved at Liverpool since the summer of 2009. His strong knowledge of the side, combined with a break from the pressure of full-time management, appears to have rejuvenated him -- and Liverpool -- more than anyone expected.

Dalglish might not be a dinosaur, but he's got other Premier League managers running scared.
 
Extra reading RE 3 at the back:

http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/5946222/napoli-taken-seriously-serie-a

Formazione_sx.jpg


Napoli is not a small club. Naples is the third-largest city in Italy and is football-crazy. In fact, the Blues are estimated to be the fourth-most supported club in the country after the traditional northern powerhouses of Juventus, Inter and Milan. This season, Napoli's average attendance is the third-highest in Serie A behind the Milan clubs.

Napoli is also no stranger to success. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, it frequently challenged at the top of the league, winning two league titles and a UEFA Cup primarily thanks to the brilliance of Diego Maradona, who played for the club from 1984 to 1991.

That's 20 years ago, of course, and Napoli's summer-transfer business didn't suggest it was about to take a leap forward this season. The only major change was up front -- the Blues lost Neapolitan Fabio Quagliarella to Juventus and replaced him with Uruguayan forward Edinson Cavani.

But not making any big moves in the transfer window has fostered stability, which has turned out to be one of Napoli's biggest strengths. With the exception of Cavani, the team's regular first XI were playing alongside one another for the majority of last season. The understanding and positional discipline they've developed is clear to see, and it's been vital in allowing Napoli to use a 3-4-2-1 system, an unusual formation among top European clubs. (Barcelona also uses the three-man back line from time to time.)

The three-man defense is interesting in itself, considering it fell out of favor across Europe in the middle of the past decade. The problem was the popularity of one-striker formations, meaning the side with a three-man defense was overstocked at the back, and created a shortfall elsewhere on the pitch.

Mazzarri has been wise -- or fortunate, depending on your point of view -- in deploying his three-man wall at a time when two-striker systems have returned to favor across Italy, particularly with the sudden re-emergence of 4-3-1-2. Against two strikers, the three-man back line works brilliantly; Napoli have two man-markers and a spare player ready to sweep up behind. Ahead of the defense, the Blues combine two solid, reliable central midfielders in Walter Gargano and Michele Pazienza with two energetic wingbacks who get up and down the line tirelessly, Christian Maggio on the right and Andrea Dossena on the left.

Fluidity is the key for Napoli up front. Cavani and Marek Hamsik play behind the main striker, Ezequiel Lavezzi, in the channels between opposition center backs and fullbacks. This forces the fullbacks to come inside and therefore opens up space on the flanks for Maggio and Dossena to get forward and whip crosses in.

That seems like an attacking style of play, but once Hamsik and Cavani (or Lavezzi) drop back to defend the wide zones when Napoli loses the ball, the wingbacks can retreat into defense, and suddenly Napoli looks like an ultradefensive 5-4-1 shape.

Mazzarri has the right philosophy tactically. He maintains his basic formation from week to week to give his side structure and stability but varies small details to make sure Napoli isn't outnumbered in certain areas. Against Fiorentina on opening day, his team was up against a lone striker in Alberto Gilardino. Mazzarri didn't need three center backs permanently, so he pushed Hugo Campagnaro forward to make up the numbers in midfield. Against Palermo, Napoli was faced with a three-man defense, so Mazzarri instructed his forwards to take turns moving out wide, constantly stretching the opposition defense. Against Genoa, opposition attacking midfielder Houssine Kharja was playing almost as a third striker, so Mazzarri split his central midfielders -- moving Pazienza deeper so Napoli still had a spare man at the back -- and used Gargano further forward.

Mazzarri has put on a master class of X's and O's. But tactics isn't the only thing that's helped Napoli. The players are also mentally tough and physically fit. Three times in the past seven games, they've won 1-0 thanks to a goal in the 90th minute, most recently a superb 27-yard strike against Lecce from Cavani, who is proving to be one of the best signings of the season.

As we head into the second half of the season, Napoli deserves to be taken seriously. Although the side is in second place, most bookmakers still regard it as fifth-favorite to be crowned champion. For the sake of variety -- both tactically and in terms of the recent list of Serie A champions -- let's hope Napoli beats the odds.
 
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