The myth of our attack

[Dreambeliever]

Roll back to November and every man and his dog was spouting how amazing our attack was and how not having a central striker to score the majority was the way the go.

Any arguement highlighting Kane at Spurs, Aguero at City it Costa at Chelsea was met with the 'we are the highest scoring team in the league!'

Now that the season has come to a close I think it's fair to say team season that have a quality no9 fair better.

Chelsea 85 goals Costa 20 goals
Spurs 86 goals Kane 29 goals
City 80 goals Aguero 20 goals
Liverpool 78 goals Firmino 11 goals

So we ended up fourth one goal ahead of Arsenal and our top goal scorers weren't strikers with 13 and our no9 scored half of that of our competitors.

Is the arguement that we don't need an out and out goal scorer settled once and for all?

Is our attack all that?

Can we repeat the form of Aug - Nov again next season?

 

[manwithnoname]

Not sure this is worthy of its own thread, considering this is obvious and even the biggest mongs on the site know it by now.
Sometimes you just have to wait a little while for the slower ones to catch up.

 

[Hansern]

I doubt that there is one poster on here that doesnt or didnt think that we need a new striker.

But to put this "myth of our attack" into perspective. Guess how many times we've scored more than 78 goals during a league season in the PL era?

 

[mark1975]

I doubt that there is one poster on here that doesnt or didnt think that we need a new striker.

But to put this "myth of our attack" into perspective. Guess how many times we've scored more than 78 goals during a league season in the PL era?

Would you be confident going into next season without signing anyone that we would equal or better that 78? I wouldn't. We all know what the argument is by now, people posted that scoring as many goals as we were scoring meant we didn't really need a goalscorer, or that they were dinosaurs in the modern game, or other such ridiculous nonsense.

To push on we need someone else of genuine quality as an option in attack, preferably someone who weighs in with goals regularly, more so than our top scorers do. And then we'll be a REAL force to be reckoned with. Of course we need other stuff, but that other stuff isn't the only solution to our woes, we need to be even more lethal and then we might start winning stuff.

 

[Squiggles]

The Firmino fallacy is what annoys me the most. The argument that he's so central to our play that statistics don't matter. "Firmino lays on lots of goals for all the other players, etc, etc". Except he doesn't. Kane, Costa and Firmino all got the same number of assists in the Premier League except Firmino scored 18 and 9 less goals than the pair of them. You then get told "oh but Firmino makes the most sprints per match" or some other shite nobody would have gave a damn about before Klopp arrived.

This isn't a go at him. I like him as a player and he is important to our game, but Firmino is not threatening enough to fire us to silverware. He needs to adapt to the attacking midfield or wide positions.

A striker is a must this window.

 

[MaBigTip]

If we didn't have more games next year I'd happily aim for a left sided Mane and a young striker with potential. Due to the extra workload we need to invest heavily in depth. That includes a good striker.

We'd have finished top scorers if a) we hadn't suffered months without our two best players. b) we hadn't shifted Firmino to the wing in November-January and May. I.E. when we stopped scoring. b has a lot to do with a.

We don't need a top striker. But if it's Aubameyang, Dybala or that level... I want one.

 

[Oliver Twist]

The bigger issue is the goals we concede (highlighted by comparison with the rest of the top four, particularly the top two)

Saying that, we do need another pacy goal scoring wide player.

 

[Oliver Twist]

The Firmino fallacy is what annoys me the most. The argument that he's so cental to our play that statistics don't matter. Firmino lays on lots of goals for all the other players etc. Except he doesn't. Kane, Costa and Firmino all got the same number of assists in the Premier League except Firmino scored 18 and 9 less goals than the pair of them. You then get told but Firmino makes the most sprints per match or some of shite nobody would have gave a damn about before Klopp arrived.

Why would you even watch games if your view of them relies so heavily on stats? It's pretty obvious Firmino's work off the ball is exceptional. Unfortunately for the statheads there isn't a stat to back up this view.

 

[hmmmmm1]

Some of firms assists this season have exceptional, only poor finishing has cost us some wonder goals. That said we do need another top class striker. I Can definitely see signing one, though i wonder who we will be left with both manc clubs and Chelsea and probably arse (if Sanchez goes) all looking at thier striking options

 

[Hansern]

Would you be confident going into next season without signing anyone that we would equal or better that 78? I wouldn't. We all know what the argument is by now, people posted that scoring as many goals as we were scoring meant we didn't really need a goalscorer, or that they were dinosaurs in the modern game, or other such ridiculous nonsense.

To push on we need someone else of genuine quality as an option in attack, preferably someone who weighs in with goals regularly, more so than our top scorers do. And then we'll be a REAL force to be reckoned with. Of course we need other stuff, but that other stuff isn't the only solution to our woes, we need to be even more lethal and then we might start winning stuff.

That was my point though. We have to and will buy a quality striker, and everybody agrees with that.

But, this "myth of our attack" misses the mark completely given the fact that we've scored more goals then 78 once, ONCE, since the PL started. And thats with strikers like Torres, Suarez, Owen, Fowler, Rush etc etc.

Our biggest issue is conceding more than 40 goals + for the 7th season in a row.
That needs fixing.

 

[Frogfish]

It is unfortunate that in the second half of the season our goals dried up. we scored 45 goals in the PL up to the end of December (19 games) and 33 goals in the 2nd half of the season. Had we not had a horrendous injury list for a couple of months (and Mane absent in January) does anyone not believe it was possible we could have scored 90 goals (and with only 2 matches vs. Top 7 teams left to play away) ?
If so then the issue clearly wasn't a lack of a bona fide striker (note Firmino has always been played as an attacking mid - and only as an emergency striker up until this season when it seems Klopp decided it was a better option whilst Sturridge was injured and in his system).

Would we be a better team with a strong running striker with stamina and a nose for goals in the box especially? Of course, and, despite Brendan's pathetic wumming attempts, simply every single person on the site agrees to that premise. And that Sturridge needed to play more (however injury intervened once again).
However let's not also forget that Mane (13 PL goals in 25+1 games equals 0.48 per game) could well have scored 20 goals had he not missed 12 games (+ 1 coming on as a late sub), so we may already have a 20 goals per season 'striker' playing in our system.

Going forward would I like to see Aubameyang in the team ? Absolutely, because his strong running is Firminoesque but with a massive goal output. However that is unlikely in the extreme. Lacazette is another of the same ilk, chances are slightly better there but still not good, Benzema another perhaps.

So Dreamy (and Brendan) the myth of our attack as you surmise it to be is clearly inaccurate if you are basing it on one season where we had a very small squad riddled with injuries over the second half of the season. Blame can be determined for that, however to draw conclusions of our attack based on it is clearly to come to conclusions that you have pre-determined and are looking for excuses to justify.

Some more stats (2016/17 vs 2015/16)

Goals scored
2016-17 – 78
2015-16 – 63

Goals per game
2016-17 – 2.05
2015-16 – 1.66

Total shots
2016-17 – 449
2015-16 – 423

Shots on target
2016-17 – 236
2015-16 – 202

Shot accuracy
2016-17 – 52.6 per cent
2015-16 – 47.8 per cent

Conversion rate
2016-17 – 17.4 per cent
2015-16 – 14.9 per cent

Goals from inside the box
2016-17 – 65
2015-16 – 48

Goals from outside the box
2016-17 – 13
2015-16 – 15

Goals from direct free-kicks
2016-17 – 3
2015-16 – 1

Goals conceded
2016-17 – 42
2015-16 – 50

Clean sheets
2016-17 – 12
2015-16 – 11

Shots on target faced
2016-17 – 115
2015-16 – 133

16 points more and 4 places higher than last season.

 

[manwithnoname]

"It is unfortunate that in the second half of the season our goals dried up. we scored 45 goals in the PL up to the end of December (19 games) and 33 goals in the 2nd half of the season."

It's not "unfortunate", it was entirely predictable that we would not keep up that level of performance and consistency.

And yet I get accused of being a "WUM" for pointing it out at the time, which then resulted in the usual drooling dog-pile as various spastics kept banging on about how were top scorers and that Firmino would get 20 goals and Origi was awesome and Lallana would carry on scoring.

I simply stated that they wouldn't, because making an assumption based on the first half of the season and claiming that was certainly going to continue for the second half, was fucking retarded.

So, really what you're trying to say is that I wasn't being a wind-up merchant, I was simply being correct.

On the subject of Firmino, again, I find your revision of events slightly nauseating.

So now Firmino "has always been an attacking midfielder" and only played as a striker because of a lack of other options? So now he should revert back to that role (where he has been nothing more than mediocre at Liverpool)?

I thought Firmino playing as a striker was actually the reason we scored so many goals, and that he was almost irreplaceable in that position and in Klopp's system because of all the things he brought to the team?

(Those things didn't include many goals, or assists, but I'm sure that experts like us can appreciate his hard work and running)

So that's the consensus now? He shouldn't play as striker anymore because he isn't one? Again, that's something I've been saying for a year. Glad you agree, finally. I'm just not sure how effective he is as an attacking midfielder either.

 

[Frogfish]

"It is unfortunate that in the second half of the season our goals dried up. we scored 45 goals in the PL up to the end of December (19 games) and 33 goals in the 2nd half of the season."

It's not "unfortunate", it was entirely predictable that we would not keep up that level of performance and consistency.

And yet I get accused of being a "WUM" for pointing it out at the time, which then resulted in the usual drooling dog-pile as various spastics kept banging on about how were top scorers and that Firmino would get 20 goals and Origi was awesome and Lallana would carry on scoring.

I simply stated that they wouldn't, because making an assumption based on the first half of the season and claiming that was certainly going to continue for the second half, was fucking retarded.

So, really what you're trying to say is that I wasn't being a wind-up merchant, I was simply being correct.

On the subject of Firmino, again, I find your revision of events slightly nauseating.

So now Firmino "has always been an attacking midfielder" and only played as a striker because of a lack of other options? So now he should revert back to that role (where he has been nothing more than mediocre at Liverpool)?

I thought Firmino playing as a striker was actually the reason we scored so many goals, and that he was almost irreplaceable in that position and in Klopp's system because of all the things he brought to the team?

(Those things didn't include many goals, or assists, but I'm sure that experts like us can appreciate his hard work and running)

So that's the consensus now? He shouldn't play as striker anymore because he isn't one? Again, that's something I've been saying for a year. Glad you agree, finally. I'm just not sure how effective he is as an attacking midfielder either.

Haha it's entertaining the way you always start a post by attempting to rewrite what another poster has said and then go on to answer your own revision. You should have been a politician not a hack.

However, what a fucking hypocrite (Mods : just for clarification is my future use of the word 'cunt' any more or less offensive than Brendan's continued use of 'spastic and mong')? You use stats endlessly when they suit your rhetoric and yet go on to abuse anyone else who does and yet draws a different, and of course far more likely, conclusion to yours (or more likely the stats totally contradict you anyway).

No Brendan, very surprisingly (for you), losing most of your top players to injury or AFCON is always going to result in a major dip in performance, and just as obviously it seems those injuries were entirely foreseeable (at least according to you). The difference of 12 goals between the two halves however is not even a drop off of the proportions one maybe could have expected. It comes as no surprise though to hear you don't agree we would have scored 12 more goals in 19 matches without the raft of injuries we suffered to Mane, Coutinho, Henderson, Lallana etc. etc..

If you don't know anything about Firmino's history it just goes to highlight your ignorance, not revisionism across the board. That's not at all surprising though since I'm certain you've said on here that you never watch any other games except Liverpool's. And how often has Firmino been played at the point of a diamond or as a #10 here ? Rarely, if ever, for the former, would be my assumption, but you seem to know so enlighten us and spell it out in actual games played there ? He's almost always played across the front three as most here would agree.

 

[manwithnoname]

A hack? What? Oh I see, you're being wrong about something else. Fits the pattern, I suppose.

So, just for clarity, you are now recommending that Firmino is no longer played as a striker, or wide attacker in a front three, because he isn't good enough to play there (lack of goals, ordinary pace etc) and are now suggesting a better striker is bought and Firmino plays as a number 10/ at the point of the midfield diamond?

 

[Frogfish]

A hack? What? Oh I see, you're being wrong about something else. Fits the pattern, I suppose.

So, just for clarity, you are now recommending that Firmino is no longer played as a striker, or wide attacker in a front three, because he isn't good enough to play there (lack of goals, ordinary pace etc) and are now suggesting a better striker is bought and Firmino plays as a number 10/ at the point of the midfield diamond?

Seems you didn't get the gist of this :
Haha it's entertaining the way you always start a post by attempting to rewrite what another poster has said and then go on to answer your own revision.

 

[manwithnoname]

Seems you didn't get the gist of this :
Haha it's entertaining the way you always start a post by attempting to rewrite what another poster has said and then go on to answer your own revision.

I asked you a simple question, which shouldn't require repeating.

Are you saying Firmino should no longer play as our striker? Not sure what you are finding difficult and/or confusing.

 

[Frogfish]

I asked you a simple question, which shouldn't require repeating.

Are you saying Firmino should no longer play as our striker? Not sure what you are finding difficult and/or confusing.

Already answered many times on this board. Comprehension of other posters' viewpoints is really not your strong point is it.

 

[manwithnoname]

"No Brendan, very surprisingly (for you), losing most of your top players to injury or AFCON is always going to result in a major dip in performance, the difference of 12 goals between the two halves however is not even a drop off of the proportions one maybe could have expected"

Maybe you didn't expect it, because you're always wrong about everything.

Indeed, around November time, even with AFCON being pretty well-established as an issue for Mane, you predicted the following:

Firmino scored 16 goals and had 11 assists (33 apps) for Hoffenheim in the 13/14 season.
Mane scored 11 goals and had 6 assists (30 apps) for Southampton in the 15/16 season.
Wijnaldum scored 11 goals and had 5 assists (36 apps) for Newcastle in the 15/16 season.
Coutinho scored 8 goals and had 5 assists (24 apps) for Liverpool in the 15/16 season.
Lallana scored 9 goals and had 5 assists (37 apps) for Southampton in the 13/14 season.
Origi scored 8 goals and had 3 assists (22 apps) for Lille in the 14/15 season.

I'd like think that the way we are playing that all or most of the above will improve on those figures

It will come as no surprise to anyone that you were .......yes! Almost entirely wrong.

 

[mark1975]

Already answered many times on this board. Comprehension of other posters' viewpoints is really not your strong point is it.

To be fair, it's not really comprehension, it's trying to work out what the point is, when it's continually skewed to fit the current agenda.

Brendan's point has been valid since last year. Despite an attractive and effective style of play, and the success of the likes of Lallana and Firmino within that set up, we need a striker who scores regularly. That was the point being made in November, when we had to put up with stats about how brilliant we were at spreading goals across the team, and how a freescoring attacker would probably disrupt all that. Oh and how strikers in that sense aren't modern (what a crock of shit).

So we've basically gone full circle and everyone is agreed that we need one, and people are rewriting what was said by claiming they always thought we needed one.

 

[manwithnoname]

To be fair, it's not really comprehension, it's trying to work out what the point is, when it's continually skewed to fit the current agenda.

Brendan's point has been valid since last year. Despite an attractive and effective style of play, and the success of the likes of Lallana and Firmino within that set up, we need a striker who scores regularly. That was the point being made in November, when we had to put up with stats about how brilliant we were at spreading goals across the team, and how a freescoring attacker would probably disrupt all that. Oh and how strikers in that sense aren't modern (what a crock of shit).

So we've basically gone full circle and everyone is agreed that we need one, and people are rewriting what was said by claiming they always thought we needed one.

Yes, that seems to be what is happening. It's really most strange. Ah well, hopefully next time we can all save a lot of effort, recrimination and embarrassing U-turns by simply agreeing with me in the first place.

 

[Oliver Twist]

Brendan's point has been valid since last year. Despite an attractive and effective style of play, and the success of the likes of Lallana and Firmino within that set up, we need a striker who scores regularly.

The point to counter that is by putting a 20-goal-a-season striker up front, will that in reality mean we score more? Sure, he may score more than Firmino did, but what impact does that have on the rest? Yeah, I know, the $60,000,000 question

It is very obviously a no-fucking-brainer to bring in a striker who would simply add to the goal tally and not detract from it.

 

[Hansern]

I think people are entitled to change their opinion given how the season has turned out for Sturridge. If he had stayed injury free and contributed with more goals, we wouldn't need a new striker.
But every poster on this site probably agrees that we need to swap Sturridge for another striker.

And I say again. Even if Brendan isnt happy with Firmino's contribution this season as our main striker. We've scored more goals once, ONCE, since the PL started.
Its not like our whole future as a top team these next few seasons depends on us solely getting a player that will contribute with 25 goals.
We need to find the right type of player that fits with how our set up is, and has the attributes we are looking for.
If we go all out and sign a proven goalscorer but who doesnt fit our playing style we'll end up with another Benteke, and as a result score less goals.

And as previously said as well. Fix the fact that we for the 7th season in a row conceded more than 40 goals.
We could score the same amount of goals next season but still challenge for the league if we concede less goals.

 

[ILD]

We usually buy a striker every season anyway. it's not rocket science to point out we need a new striker. The need is always there and this season will be no different. Mane, Benteke, Origi, Balotelli, Ings, Lambert, Aspas, Borini, Sturridge, Bellamy, Carroll, Suarez etc etc in the last 7 or so years. We buy a striker every year. Let's hope the one we get this year is a good one.

I think Frimino is great btw, I still want us to a sign striker and we probably will, because as I said above, we usually sign a new one every season.

 

[Hansern]

To be fair, it's not really comprehension, it's trying to work out what the point is, when it's continually skewed to fit the current agenda.

Brendan's point has been valid since last year. Despite an attractive and effective style of play, and the success of the likes of Lallana and Firmino within that set up, we need a striker who scores regularly. That was the point being made in November, when we had to put up with stats about how brilliant we were at spreading goals across the team, and how a freescoring attacker would probably disrupt all that. Oh and how strikers in that sense aren't modern (what a crock of shit).

So we've basically gone full circle and everyone is agreed that we need one, and people are rewriting what was said by claiming they always thought we needed one.

Its quite interesting that we look less dangerous as a team and score less goals when we play our "prolific" striker who scores regularly though.
Which means there is something to the point being made about what type of player we start upfront.

 

[manwithnoname]

We usually buy a striker every season anyway. it's not rocket science to point out we need a new striker. The need is always there and this season will be no different. Mane, Benteke, Origi, Balotelli, Ings, Lambert, Aspas, Borini, Sturridge, Bellamy, Carroll, Suarez etc etc in the last 7 or so years. We buy a striker every year. Let's hope the one we get this year is a good one.

I think Frimino is great btw, I still want us to a sign striker and we probably will, because as I said above, we usually sign a new one every season.

We buy a striker every year so that's the reason you want us to buy one?

Often we have to buy one because our best one leaves (Suarez, Torres) or the ones we have aren't good enough (Carroll, Origi, Lambert, Borini, Balotelli, Firmino).

So we will buy one this year for the latter reason, but I'd be happier if we were in a position for once when we didn't "have to" buy one, because we had enough really good ones.

 

[Frogfish]

"No Brendan, very surprisingly (for you), losing most of your top players to injury or AFCON is always going to result in a major dip in performance, the difference of 12 goals between the two halves however is not even a drop off of the proportions one maybe could have expected"

Maybe you didn't expect it, because you're always wrong about everything.

Indeed, around November time, even with AFCON being pretty well-established as an issue for Mane, you predicted the following:

Firmino scored 16 goals and had 11 assists (33 apps) for Hoffenheim in the 13/14 season.
Mane scored 11 goals and had 6 assists (30 apps) for Southampton in the 15/16 season.
Wijnaldum scored 11 goals and had 5 assists (36 apps) for Newcastle in the 15/16 season.
Coutinho scored 8 goals and had 5 assists (24 apps) for Liverpool in the 15/16 season.
Lallana scored 9 goals and had 5 assists (37 apps) for Southampton in the 13/14 season.
Origi scored 8 goals and had 3 assists (22 apps) for Lille in the 14/15 season.

I'd like think that the way we are playing that all or most of the above will improve on those figures

It will come as no surprise to anyone that you were .......yes! Almost entirely wrong.

Brendan. I honestly didn't realise how appallingly awful at maths you are. I apologise. Don't worry though, in future I'll remember spell it out REALLY simply for you.

So in this instance .... WTF are you on about !? Two players failed to make it, two fell a goal short but improved their assists by 2 (so combined, a slight gain), one improved slightly and one was a big improvement. So no, not nearly all wrong at all, as any Liverpool fan could tell you. And all that after suffering a horrendous injury list too which most certainly skewed what would have been far better figures.

I really wish you wouldn't be such a lazy cunt and would actually do some real research instead of trawling 6CM for soundbites.

Lallana -1 on goal +2 on assists. Near enough same.
Coutinho +5 on goals, +2 on assists. Win.
Origi -1 on goals +2 on assists. Near enough same.
Mane +2 goals and -1 assists. Small win.
Wijnaldum -5 and +4 on assists. Lose.
Firmino - 5 goals and -4 assists. Lose.

 

[Frogfish]

To be fair, it's not really comprehension, it's trying to work out what the point is, when it's continually skewed to fit the current agenda.

Brendan's point has been valid since last year. Despite an attractive and effective style of play, and the success of the likes of Lallana and Firmino within that set up, we need a striker who scores regularly. That was the point being made in November, when we had to put up with stats about how brilliant we were at spreading goals across the team, and how a freescoring attacker would probably disrupt all that. Oh and how strikers in that sense aren't modern (what a crock of shit).

So we've basically gone full circle and everyone is agreed that we need one, and people are rewriting what was said by claiming they always thought we needed one.

Actually no-one was against a striker per se. What was said was that he would need to be of a type that fits Klopp's system and failing that Firmino fitted into the team well and the system was clearly working. As per the examples I gave (Aubameyang, Lacazette and Benzema) in this thread. If you check I have always been a big fan of Aubameyang and although can't claim to have championed him from as far back as Dmishra I was always on that wagon.

 

[mark1975]

The point to counter that is by putting a 20-goal-a-season striker up front, will that in reality mean we score more? Sure, he may score more than Firmino did, but what impact does that have on the rest? Yeah, I know, the $60,000,000 question

It is very obviously a no-fucking-brainer to bring in a striker who would simply add to the goal tally and not detract from it.

But this wasn't the point people we're making back in November, it was either/or. You either had a team that spread goals without a bonafide goalscorer, or a prolific striker. They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[ILD]

We buy a striker every year so that's the reason you want us to buy one?

No, I want us to buy one because as I said above, "we need a new striker".

I was just pointing out that we buy a new striker every year anyway so it isn't rocket science to suggest that we will be buying one this year.
Of course it would be great if we didn't need to buy a striker but there always seems to be a need. i.e. to replace someone who has left or to add further options off the bench. I think all clubs sign a striker every season for similar reasons. Jansen to Spurs when they had Kane & Son. Jesus to City when they had Aguero and Iheanacho. Batshuayi to Chelsea when they had Costa and Pedro and so on.

 

[mark1975]

Its quite interesting that we look less dangerous as a team and score less goals when we play our "prolific" striker who scores regularly though.
Which means there is something to the point being made about what type of player we start upfront.

Do you think? I thought we just scored a few goals with Sturridge starting? The only "issue" was Klopp shoehorning him into the system, the same as he tried to do with Benteke. He adjusted it a bit to get the best of him, and we scored goals again, also it's not really a coincidence that Sturridge performed better when he was actually fully fit.