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Poor Can's Hendo

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rurikbird

rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
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I have to say I was quite disappointed with Can's performance yesterday – this season we all got used to seeing Hendo is this position, so the contrast in performance was very stark in every aspect: interceptions, passing, defense. Where Hendo would pro-actively step in and win back possession for us, Can stayed deep and allowed Sunderland time to build an attack. Where Hendo would quickly switch the play to the flank (even though some derided these passes as "sideways"), Can dithered on the ball and mostly played his passes short, forcing Milner and Wijnaldum to take over some of Henderson's playmaking duties. In defense, Can looked like he always needed 5 meters to properly accelerate and 2 meters to brake and offered noticeably less protection to Lovren and Klavan, which resulted in offensively-challenged Sunderland creating probably more clear-cut chances against us than either one of Chelsea, Spurs, Man United and City. He improved a bit in the 2nd half, but overall it was really disappointing and definitely hurt us in this game.

Now after this quite harsh (but fair, I think) criticism I have to defend Can too. This is not a performance to give up on him – I think it just mostly shows that he is in poor form and low on confidence at the moment. Last season he had some really excellent performances in the DM position and pretty much made it his own. What I especially liked about him last season was how he drove the team forward when we needed a lift, with adventurous passing and sometimes going on a powerful run himself (something I wish Hendo did more often). Do you remember Origi's momentum-turning goal in the home game against Dortmund? It was Can who orchestrated the move, playing 2 rapid-fire one-twos and playing a perfect through ball. Or the back-heel against Man City? Can is one of the most audacious players in this team and this is why, I think, loss of regular playing time and confidence hurts him badly – without that swagger he is not even half the player. Can was the first player to noticeably lift his performance level under Klopp; he also scored the first goal of the new manager's reign, which I thought was perhaps significant. I hope this difficult period will make him stronger, more mature (don't forget he's still 22!) and consistent. Klopp will be frustrated with the drop in Can's performance, but overall I think Klopp is still a believer and so am I.
 
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I am as well, but I've never been convinced DM is his best role. Midfielders as big and strong as Can sometimes get shoehorned into more defensive roles because they are big units, even when that isn't what they're best at - we tried it at times with Jan Molby for example and it never, ever worked. IMO to get the best out of Emre Can he has to play further forward. I reckon we need to bring a quality DM option into the squad in January.
 
Judge Jules said:
I am as well, but I've never been convinced DM is his best role. Midfielders as big and strong as Can sometimes get shoehorned into more defensive roles because they are big units, even when that isn't what they're best at - we tried it at times with Jan Molby for example and it never, ever worked. IMO to get the best out of Emre Can he has to play further forward. I reckon we need to bring a quality DM option into the squad in January.
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I don't know, last season I actually thought Can proved beyond any doubt that DM is his best position. Now, of course, everything is in doubt again.
 
I can't agree about last season. Can did improve in the DM position as the season went on, but some of the difficulties you rightly describe above were still cropping up. He's never had a long run in a more attacking role, so maybe we don't have enough evidence on which to make a full comparison but, from what I've seen of him, his best work has almost always been done going forward. Gonna be interesting to see where Klopp sees him playing long-term.
 
What yesterday showed us more than anything is just how important Henderson is to our team, he's fantastic in that role and an often overlooked and under appreciated cog in our machine. As for Can, it was a poor game, but he's got bags on potential, however I agree with Jules, I see his future in central midfield, where he has a bit more of a license to try audacious moves.
 
He's not kicking on, partly down to the Wijnaldum signing, but he didnt show enough last year for Klopp to be convinced.

There's still the odd moment of pure quality from him, but that's typically in the final third. He's definitely worth keeping on the books, but we will have to lower our expectations in regards to his ceiling as a player. At this point he seems to be more of a potential squddie than the top-class CM we had hoped for. There's still time though and we'll likely be in Europe next year which will give more opportunties.
 
I think he looked good in a weak, disjointed midfield last year but we have improved dramatically in this department with Lallana moving into centre midfield and with the addition of Wijnaldum and it has exposed the inconsistency and slowness of thought that has always been the weakness of Can.

Unfortunately, Can is not at the same level as the other starters and it shows every time he deputises. He may yet reach that standard because he is still young but to me, we do need another top class centre midfielder so we can rotate without affecting the performance.
 
There has been quite a bit of chat on here from a few vociferous posters about us needing a Hendo upgrade but this game really showed us how pivotal he is to the team and the way we play. He was key to our form in 'that' Rodgers season, and he has been again this season - anyone who doubts this really doesn't have a good grasp on the game.
 
Henderson's change in position is almost as significant a challenge as Milners to LB, but it's seldom talked about. He's changed from a barn-storming, work-house trying to be everywhere to a smart, holding midfielder in a very attacking set-up which could leave him exposed were it not for his brains and athleticism.

He's doing brilliantly and is vital to our recent success.
 
I think he's an all round excellent midfielder but better in an advanced role.

The only reason people label his clumsy is because he runs all the time leaving gaps in midfield...he needs to calm down and stay fixed to 1 position.
 
Can certainly looked lost yesterday. Not sure where he fits into this system at all.

He just doesn't move the ball fast enough and doesn't press fast enough or at the right time.
 
Hendo has been magnificent this season and has been as important as anyone to our great form. Anybody any idea when Hendo is back?
 
I think some of the criticism is going overboard. I was watching a little more closely after reading some of it in the match thread and he did make a fair few interceptions, hustled players off the ball and what not. There was one moment where he tracked someones run right down to LB and used his strength very effectively to let it out for a goal kick. That was good defending. There were parts of his job that he did quite well but overall it wasn't the best performance with some of the same 'ol issues plaguing it.


I had really high hopes for Can and have also been quite disappointed with him this season. I wanted to see a genuine top class player emerge for but it's still a bit up in the air as to whether he's got it in him to kick on.

There have been genuine mitigating factors though so shouldn't be dismissed so readily. He's had a bit of a stop start season so hasn't been able to get a real run of games going and the style of midfield has changed in a way that doesn't flatter him. It's a tough ask being asked to play one touch stuff alongside a bunch of number 10 type players.
 
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keniget said:
I think some of the criticism is going overboard. I was watching a little more closely after reading some of it in the match thread and he did make a fair few interceptions, hustled players off the ball and what not. There was one moment where he tracked someones run right down to LB and used his strength very effectively to let it out for a goal kick. That was good defending. There were parts of his job that he did quite well but overall it wasn't the best performance with some of the same 'ol issues plaguing it.


I had really high hopes for Can and have also been quite disappointed with him this season. I wanted to see a genuine top class player emerge for but it's still a bit up in the air as to whether he's got it in him to kick on.

There have been genuine mitigating factors though so shouldn't be dismissed so readily. He's had a bit of a stop start season so hasn't been able to get a real run of games going and the style of midfield has changed in a way that doesn't flatter him. It's a tough ask being asked to play one touch stuff alongside a bunch of number 10 type players.
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Can is good at tackling and making interceptions, regardless of where he plays. He always has been.

He was shite against Sunderland though. I wish we weren't having this type of conversation about him, though.
We don't need any more "divisive" players, because we all know what that really means.
 
manwithnoname said:
Can is good at tackling and making interceptions, regardless of where he plays. He always has been.

He was shite against Sunderland though. I wish we weren't having this type of conversation about him, though.
We don't need any more "divisive" players, because we all know what that really means.
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Is he really that much of a divisive player? I might be wrong but I thought everyone had him as one of the cornerstones of our midfield in the summer? He's nothing like a Lucas or a Crouch yet.

He is talented (rather than simply ineffectual or shit like some of the previous divisive players) but frustratingly inconsistent. It's a similar thing with Origi who I've also been disappointed with this year despite his goals. It's just something you have to deal with when you take punts on young talents.

I was actually thinking the other day that there isn't a lot of dead wood in this squad. There a few fringe players that you wouldn't lose any sleep over if they went but in terms of the core squad, you could make an argument for almost all of them.
 
keniget said:
Is he really that much of a divisive player? I might be wrong but I thought everyone had him as one of the cornerstones of our midfield in the summer? He's nothing like a Lucas or a Crouch yet.

He is talented (rather than simply ineffectual or shit like some of the previous divisive players) but frustratingly inconsistent. It's a similar thing with Origi who I've also been disappointed with this year despite his goals. It's just something you have to deal with when you take punts on young talents.

I was actually thinking the other day that there isn't a lot of dead wood in this squad. There a few fringe players that you wouldn't lose any sleep over if they went but in terms of the core squad, you could make an argument for almost all of them.
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Oh wait, we need a calibration of the word "divisive".

I didn't mean "obviously and totally shit"

Which is apposite when discussing Origi, or Firmino. In their case, the "divisive" arguments are between those that think they're obviously amazing and potentially "world class", and those that know they aren't.
 
manwithnoname said:
Oh wait, we need a calibration of the word "divisive".

I didn't mean "obviously and totally shit"

Which is apposite when discussing Origi, or Firmino. In their case, the "divisive" arguments are between those that think they're obviously amazing and potentially "world class", and those that know they aren't.
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Have you taken up fishing in the new year?
 
StevieM said:
Have you taken up fishing in the new year?
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Well, you could really have the same conversation about almost all of our players. It's healthy and any good team needs to have that element of striving and improvement.

I have my favourites, as do all our fans, so it's natural that we gravitate to those players, and harbour doubts about others.

There's a few that I don't really have any issues with in their required roles right now (form and fitness notwithstanding): Clyne, Milner, Mane, Coutinho.

Lallana this season has belatedly joined those ranks, with a move to a deeper role less reliant on pace being crucial. Matip may well do. Sturridge if fit is another. Henderson has also stepped up and become an integral part of the team, with his mobility, stamina and physicality so important.

As for the rest, there's obvious issues and debate to be had about the likes of Lovren, Klavan, Klarius, Wijnaldum, Can, Firmino, Ings and Origi, which is all good and makes for interesting discourse. Of that list, I would say maybe three will prove the doubters wrong in the long-term at Liverpool. Certainly at the moment not one is anywhere near as good as their most fervent fanclub would attest. (There's also the youth talent coming through, which is also exciting.)

And then there are those that everybody knows we need to replace and shouldn't be in any first XI for Liverpool in an ideal world: Sakho, Mignolet, Lucas, Stewart, Illori etc.

Overall, Klopp is doing a very fine job with what he has at his disposal, but I think he sometimes has a blind spot in his assessemnt of the size and quality of his squad - but then what manager doesn't?

But I do know that he needs to strengthen, because we are still very obviously not good enough in key areas.
 
Can looked clumsy in that role. I think it is a bit of two factors. First he haven't played there for a while, and huffed and puffed around to find a rythm in his game. Second of all he seem to need a string of games before he looks fit. He look like a guy that have to play himself fit. So these two combined With us really not having the movement and fluency we normally have made it a bad night for Can. But he will come back stronger.
 
Insignificance said:
Can looked clumsy in that role. I think it is a bit of two factors. First he haven't played there for a while, and huffed and puffed around to find a rythm in his game. Second of all he seem to need a string of games before he looks fit. He look like a guy that have to play himself fit. So these two combined With us really not having the movement and fluency we normally have made it a bad night for Can. But he will come back stronger.
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He's also a bit clumsy.
 
Insignificance said:
Can looked clumsy in that role. I think it is a bit of two factors. First he haven't played there for a while, and huffed and puffed around to find a rythm in his game. Second of all he seem to need a string of games before he looks fit. He look like a guy that have to play himself fit. So these two combined With us really not having the movement and fluency we normally have made it a bad night for Can. But he will come back stronger.
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Does Can never not look clumsy though?

I can understand why some people rate him...when he gets into his stride and powers past players it looks very impressive indeed and it's easy to be taken aback and think wow this lad could be a superstar. More often than not though he flatters to deceive for me...heavy touches, slow on the turn, little awareness of what's around him.

I know he still has time but we're not well into his third season and he's yet to totally convince. Hope I'm proven wrong but I don't think he'll be good enough for us long-term.
 
I don't either IF we keep him at DM. If we play him in a more attacking role and work on that with him I reckon he's still in with a chance.
 
Insignificance said:
Can looked clumsy in that role. I think it is a bit of two factors. First he haven't played there for a while, and huffed and puffed around to find a rythm in his game. Second of all he seem to need a string of games before he looks fit. He look like a guy that have to play himself fit. So these two combined With us really not having the movement and fluency we normally have made it a bad night for Can. But he will come back stronger.
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Maybe another quite important factor was that his teammates were used to playing with Hendo and having him cover an immense amount of space as he does – they didn't adjust to Can's less dynamic style, especially in the first half, and as a result we left pretty big gaps in the middle of the pitch that even Sunderland could exploit (Klopp partially corrected this at half-time). Can is a different type of a DM compared to Hendo, more of a "sitter" than a "roamer" and now that I think about perhaps it was a bit unfair to expect him to do Hendo's job just as Hendo does. Can will never cover as much space as Hendo, but he is great at 1 on 1 duels and when on form he does make very effective runs forward and carries a goal threat.
 
manwithnoname said:
Which is apposite when discussing Origi, or Firmino. In their case, the "divisive" arguments are between those that think they're obviously amazing and potentially "world class", and those that know they aren't.
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Or maybe the arguments are between those who think Origi and Firmino are quite - or potentially quite - good (a lot on here) and those that think they're shit (you). Unless you've changed your mind, of course.

A subtle difference in your narrative.
 
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