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Playing with 3 at the back

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rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
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It seems like this system is making a come-back in a big way this season. When Rodgers did it in 2014-15 it seemed like a novelty and then the consensus was the it got "figured out" (personally I'm not sure I agree with this consensus – I think it was more about lack of execution). This season already five Premier League five teams are playing 3 at the back on a regular or semi-regular basis – Chelsea, West Ham, Watford, Hull, and Man City – and in the case of the first two teams mentioned, their results and performances have clearly improved upon switching to the new system mid-season.

Even in Germany, which has been traditionally very dogmatic about their patented 4-2-3-1 as the "default" system and resistant to change, there are now also about 5 teams playing with 3 at the back, including two of this season's surprise packages, Hoffenheim (under the managerial prodigy Nagelsmann) and Köln. With the way it's going, I can see more and more teams and managers willing to give it a try. At times it seems like a universal remedy – your defenders keep shipping in goals? Switch to the back 3 and see if it makes things better!

Anyway, I don't have an opinion on this (unless you are professional, you probably can't have an informed opinion anyway), but it's clearly a new trend that needs to be noted. Klopp seems to be a firm believer in 4 at the back, so we are unlikely to join the party, but we'll be playing more and more teams (like Watford today) that employ this system and will need to figure out how to counter it effectively. Here is a very illuminating discussion at last week's MNF about this very subject:

 
You can't have an informed opinion on football 'unless you're a professional'?

Yeah, it would seem folly for the simple layman supporter to even proffer any kind of view on the pros and cons, and deliver their opinion. Football is just so amazingly complex.

For anyone on here to have any kind of informed opinion about 3-5-2 would be as ridiculous as discussing the electromagnetic particle transport simulation with a CERN computer technician.

All I can tell is that one system appears to have four players in defence, and another has three. Which seems risky because it's less?

Oh, I give up!
 
What I mean is I can't talk about this system in general, because there are simply too many variations for me to grasp. If I were to say "I don't like 3-5-2" or "I like 3-5-2" it would be just kind of pointless, IMO. But for sure fans can see very clearly when something is working and when it's not. I never said "You can't have an informed opinion on football," that would be exactly the kind of generalizing I'm against.
 
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Under Rodgers we were in a 3 month unbeaten run whilst playing 3 at the back. Then we played United and it fell apart. LVG worked out a way to get the better of the we were playing that system and we never recovered.

That's how I remember it anyway.
 
My opinion on 3-5-2 is based solely on how many teams have won the Premier League, playing that formation for the majority of their games.

Answer: Zero.
 
My opinion on 3-5-2 is based solely on how many teams have won the Premier League, playing that formation for the majority of their games.

Answer: Zero.

True. But things do change in football - a decade and a half ago it was very unusual to play with one striker.
 
Wow, Spurs started with 3 at the back just now for the first time in... maybe ever? It's spreading!
 
True. But things do change in football - a decade and a half ago it was very unusual to play with one striker.
I think the one striker system has existed for years in different guises. Unless you played the traditional big man/ little man up front, you'd essentially have one up with one playing behind.
3-5-2 has for me, mostly been a system managers are forced into when they either don't have a good enough centre back pairing, or they lack wingers.
Let's add another centre back and make the fullbacks wingbacks.
It works for a while, but ultimately is never successful in winning the EPL.
 
May be a little old but still quite insightful (at least to me 🙂 )

Dated 2012
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/aug/28/football-back-three-manchester-city
[article]Everything tactical in football is relative. There are few absolutes; everything has meaning and relevance only in relation to everything else. The question "What's the best formation?" is nonsensical because it depends on so many subsidiary questions: who are my players? How fit are they? How confident are they? How motivated are they? What are they used to doing? What result do we need from this game? Are we home or away? What is the weather like? What is the pitch like? Who are the opposition? How do they play? What shape do they play? How are their form and fitness? Even if a manager can accurately assess all of that, it may still be that after 10 minutes it becomes apparent that he needs to tweak something because of a player, whether on his side or the opponent's, suddenly having a great game or an appalling game.

Yet trends develop. Certain formations become modish. Often, as with the long-standing reliance on 4-4-2 in Britain, it's to do with how football is coached at youth level. Sometimes it's because a successful team makes a particular way of playing popular – 4-4-2, for instance, first came into vogue because of England's success at the 1966 World Cup. And sometimes formations disappear because, in the great game of scissors-paper-stone that football tactics often become, the fashionable way of playing is particularly effective against it.

Three years ago, playing three at the back had all but disappeared. It had died away in the late 50s and 60s as the W-M was superseded by a back four, and re-emerged in the mid-80s, in slightly different forms, with Carlos Bilardo's Argentina, Sepp Piontek's Denmark, Franz Beckenbauer's West Germany and Ciro Blazevic's Dinamo Zagreb. The logic was simple: a libero flanked by two man-markers who picked up the opposing centre-forwards, wing-backs to drive the opposing wide men back and, against a 4-4-2, an extra man in midfield to help control possession (it was this approach, rather than the use of a back three per se, that Johan Cruyff described as being the "death of football"). The problem came as teams stopped playing two centre-forwards. Leave a libero and two markers against one striker and that means one of the markers is redundant (and, as a marker, probably not that adept at stepping into midfield), which in turns means a side will be a player short elsewhere on the pitch.

Yet three at the back has started to make a comeback. It began in Italy, with Udinese and Napoli. At Barcelona, the first and most successful stage of Pep Guardiola's season-long charge backwards through the evolution of tactics was a back three. Then Wigan Athletic started doing it. Now Manchester City have joined in. In fact, in the top divisions of Europe's top five leagues over the weekend, 12 teams used the shape (eight in Italy, two in England, one in Spain, one in France and none in Germany). Three at the back is back.

The difficulty of playing with three at the back against a lone striker has not gone away, of course. But what has emerged over the past few seasons is that there are specific circumstances in which the benefits of the shape outweigh that negative. Most obvious, for teams that sit deep and seek only to defend, having two spare men at the back (particularly if the marking is zonal rather than man-to-man) is actually a major advantage. Perhaps because of the extraordinary control of the ball achieved by Barcelona and Spain, it now seems more acceptable for games – in the minds of the team doing defending if nothing else – to take place only in one half, for one team to sit extremely deep and look to absorb pressure with only the occasional breakaway or set play. Internazionale's performance at the Camp Nou in the second leg of the Champions League semi-final in 2010 opened a new vista of defensive possibility.

That was certainly the logic Bordeaux used away to Paris Saint-Germain on Sunday, holding them to a 0-0 draw with an extremely defensive 3-3-3-1: Carlos Henrique, Ludovic Sané and Michaël Ciani across the back with Henri Saivet and Ludovic Obraniak playing almost alongside the holder Landry Nguemo, so the shape was often a 5-3-1-1. That's three draws in a row for PSG and, as Philippe Auclair pointed out, it's not that teams have found a recipe for upsetting PSG, it's that everything that has been tried against them has unsettled them: Lorient counterattacked, Ajaccio sat back and sprang forward in controlled bursts of pressing; Bordeaux just stayed exceptionally deep.

In Italy, the attraction seems cultural. I discussed the issue in some detail here in February, but essentially there is a cultural urge to pack the centre, which is why two years ago the default formation was 4-3-1-2 with very little width. A back three offers a way of gaining attacking width (see, for example, Stephan Lichtsteiner getting forward to score Juventus's opener against Parma on Saturday) while still being able to retain the number of bodies in the centre that Italian football seems to need to feel comfortable. It was also notable at the weekend that six of the eight sides using a back three were playing each other: Fiorentina against Udinese, Juventus against Parma and Palermo against Napoli (the other two were Bologna using a defensive back three away to Chievo and Siena playing a 3-5-2 against Torino's narrow 4-4-2). It may be that there was some matching of shapes going on, teams adopting a back three to play against a back three.

The third group that may be attracted to a back three is those following the Bielsa protocol. Marcelo Bielsa's philosophy is radical – too radical, sadly, for most players, as Athletic Bilbao seem to be finding out (he may be the greatest theorist in football today, but the practicality of dealing with players who persist in being human undermines his coaching). For him defending is less about marking or reacting to opponents than about pressing to regain possession. He needs to be able to get players high up the field quickly, partly to attack an opponent in possession and partly to offer passing options when possession is regained. That is the logic Barcelona followed last season.

Quite what advantage Manchester City see in using a back three is far from clear. They played with a back three against Chelsea in the Community Shield and then again against Liverpool on Sunday. "We went to it last year a little bit to close games off, but what the manager has tried to work on all pre-season is the ability to be able to go to a back three if we want to, and be more offensive than defensive with it," the assistant manager, David Platt, explained in a piece with the Manchester Evening News after the 3-2 win over Chelsea. "The problem is that when you give the ball away you are more susceptible to a counterattack, and we did that for both goals against Chelsea.

"Robbie [Mancini] wanted to have a go at it this season, and we had discussions about it. Last year we flicked into a three at times, but we did it tactically, such as when we were 2-0 up with 20 minutes to go and someone puts a big striker on, to snuff out the space. Then it was done more from a defensive point of view in the last 15 or 20 minutes when teams were throwing everything, and the kitchen sink, at us. To add that other string to the bow, we had to have a good look at it from more of an offensive point of view, where we would have the wide centre-halves coming out and playing with the ball rather than staying narrow, and we are getting the wing-backs high."

The attacking possibilities were apparent at times in the Community Shield, most notably when the left wing-back Aleksandar Kolarov got forward to cross for Samir Nasri to score City's third. Defensively, City were rather less comfortable. Against Liverpool, the problems were more pronounced (and, of course, although City ended up winning the Community Shield relatively comfortably, they were trailing when Branislav Ivanovic was sent off).

The problem was the classic one of having three central defenders line up against a single central striker. With Raheem Sterling and Fabio Borini both threatening, neither City wing-back could get forward, and that meant Liverpool, with a midfield three plus two full-backs (although both were perhaps more cautious than they needed to be) able to push on in the absence of any City threat from wide, were able to dominate City's midfield two of Yaya Touré and Nigel de Jong plus Nasri dropping back. City in the end were extremely fortunate to take a point.

So why did City use the back three? From what Platt said it would be to make City more like Barça, to drive the game higher up the pitch.

But if that was the aim, then why start with a midfield four as functional as James Milner, De Jong, Touré and Kolarov? That's not a four geared to ball retention. But equally it seems inconceivable that City, facing a Liverpool side that had lost 3-0 to West Brom on the opening day, would have seen the need to go in with additional defensive cover – and the way they started the game certainly wasn't defensive.

The lazy analysis of Mancini is to say that he's over-cautious because he's Italian, a weary stereotyping that's so generalised as to be meaningless. Where Mancini does seem to stay true to the traditions of the Italian game, though, is in his distrust of wingers (which you suspect Adam Johnson's fitful form only intensified). His sides, both at Inter and City, have always been narrow: playing a 3-4-1-2 allows him to have players overlap, as Kolarov did against Chelsea, while, in theory, retaining solidity. The problem comes against teams with genuine width such as that Liverpool demonstrated on Sunday.

But there are wider problems. While it's always useful to have an extra tactical option, it's hard to see how it's possible for City, given personnel, to play a 3-4-3 or 3-4-1-2 without it becoming a broken team: a back three, two wing-backs, a holder (or two) and poor Yaya Touré slogging up and down to connect the back six to the front three. For one thing, that would seem to make it very difficult to fit Nasri and Silva into the same lineup, and for another that would seem to increase the reliance on Touré, which it must be one of the aims of this season to reduce. There's nothing wrong, as such, with being a broken team, but it's a reactive way of playing: surely the richest team in football, a team that could be to this generation what Real Madrid was in the 50s, should be pro-active in approach, should be looking to produce a cohesive style of football that seeks to dominate games?

Even if City's approach is puzzling, though, three at the back has re-established itself. Wigan Athletic's use of it is fascinating, particularly given how, this season, it has often morphed into a back four with Maynor Figueroa falling back in to a more orthodox left-back position at times. With Shaun Maloney dropping deep and Arouna Koné clearly operating behind Franco Di Santo, the system in Saturday's win against Southampton was a base 3-4-2-1 that at times looked like a 3-4-3 and at times like a 4-4-1-1. For Roberto Martínez, the back three seems a way of enhancing flexibility without sacrificing too much solidity: he has a back three and a front one and six players who adjust as required. In that, they're not dissimilar in approach to Napoli and, like Napoli, it's an approach that seems specific to that relatively small group of players. Wigan are unlikely to rotate too much this season.

Every generation feels as though it is living at the end of history.

It's very hard to imagine what will come next. How could there be anything new on football? How can it develop tactically? But evolution isn't necessarily forward. Perhaps there are no great tactical revolutions to come; probably our globalised, perpetually analysed world militates against them. But there is still plenty of life in old ideas, still plenty of ways to reinterpret that with which we are already familiar.[/article]

I colored ball retention in blue because as I read that, I remember this tweet I saw yesterday:
 
My opinion on 3-5-2 is based solely on how many teams have won the Premier League, playing that formation for the majority of their games.

Answer: Zero.

That was always my concern, but apparently examining trends, looking at common factors and calculating probability is frowned upon by some posters

The most obvious problem when we played it is the yawning chasm when the wide players attack, and it's easily exploited.

The other obvious problem is that we didn't have good enough players, and it was always one of Rodgers' trusted panic buttons that he pushed when things were going tits up, so it lacked genuine conviction

Like anything else, you can make it work if you have the belief, good players and understand what your role is, but as you say, it's not been a proven success in the Premiership

When you haven't won it for over 25 years, it's probably wise to play the small percentages and minimise risk as much as possible, by following the more successful strategies and approaches to building a team that can win the title
 
3-5-2 has for me, mostly been a system managers are forced into when they either don't have a good enough centre back pairing, or they lack wingers.
Let's add another centre back and make the fullbacks wingbacks.
It works for a while, but ultimately is never successful in winning the EPL.

That's exactly right - this is how this system has been implemented by EPL managers in the past seasons - as a way to shore up a leaky defense and paper over the cracks. However this season, in England as in Germany (leaving aside Italy, where this system is very common), some teams seem to start implementing it in a serious and committed way - certainly Chelsea and Watford are among them (both in this case happen to be headed by Italian managers, but in Germany it's the local managers who are doing it).

By committed I mean not just converting fullbacks to wing-backs, but using specialist wing-backs - like Marcos Alonso, for example. Moses too looks a lot better as a wing-back than in any other position I've seen him play.
 
If Milner was injured and Moreno had to come in, I'd rather he came in as a wing back. In fact didn't Rodgers go to 3 at the back because our full backs were so hopeless?
 
Is it just a response to the type of players available. We dont seem to have many Steve Finnan type top quality full backs nowadays. It appears most full backs now prefer to attack than defend.

Second the type of players available for midfield also. 10-12 years around the same time we had Xabi, Xavi and other great Spanish midfielders starting or moving into their prime as midfielders, Mascherano, Chelsea always had a strong midfield, several great French midfielders coming to the end of their career, AC Milan with Pirlo, Gattuso. Loads of quality midfielders from both attacking and defensive style.

Nowadays the midfield pool is also poorer. Maybe the 3-4-3 is a response to that. It is a way to get defensive cover without compromising too much on attack.
 
Is it just a response to the type of players available. We dont seem to have many Steve Finnan type top quality full backs nowadays. It appears most full backs now prefer to attack than defend.

Second the type of players available for midfield also. 10-12 years around the same time we had Xabi, Xavi and other great Spanish midfielders starting or moving into their prime as midfielders, Mascherano, Chelsea always had a strong midfield, several great French midfielders coming to the end of their career, AC Milan with Pirlo, Gattuso. Loads of quality midfielders from both attacking and defensive style.

Nowadays the midfield pool is also poorer. Maybe the 3-4-3 is a response to that. It is a way to get defensive cover without compromising too much on attack.
It's also - in Chelsea's case - a way of getting Hazard into the team, and removing any semblance of structure or responsibility to how he plays. Which seems to suit him.

Spurs dabbling with it may just be about the loss of Alderweireld, and maximising the offensive quality (and defensive lapses) of Kyle Walker. Dunno, but Arsenal should have done more damage to them at the weekend.
 
Well, we seemed to find a solution all right yesterday. The first 3-5-2 test passed with flying colours.
 
Well, we seemed to find a solution all right yesterday. The first 3-5-2 test passed with flying colours.

Firmino was great yesterday. He did a proper 9, held up the ball supremely and brought midfielders into play. He didn't run the wings like he used to which wouldn't be as effective because the centrebacks were spread out much wider. I think that was the key and it was a deliberate call by Klopp.
 
That's exactly right - this is how this system has been implemented by EPL managers in the past seasons - as a way to shore up a leaky defense and paper over the cracks. However this season, in England as in Germany (leaving aside Italy, where this system is very common), some teams seem to start implementing it in a serious and committed way - certainly Chelsea and Watford are among them (both in this case happen to be headed by Italian managers, but in Germany it's the local managers who are doing it).

By committed I mean not just converting fullbacks to wing-backs, but using specialist wing-backs - like Marcos Alonso, for example. Moses too looks a lot better as a wing-back than in any other position I've seen him play.
I'm surprised he has the pace for it, being thousands of years old an' all.
 
It's also - in Chelsea's case - a way of getting Hazard into the team, and removing any semblance of structure or responsibility to how he plays. Which seems to suit him.

Spurs dabbling with it may just be about the loss of Alderweireld, and maximising the offensive quality (and defensive lapses) of Kyle Walker. Dunno, but Arsenal should have done more damage to them at the weekend.
Indeed, Arsenal were poor on Saturday, but Sanchez and co kept pulling into the space down the side of Spurs fullback, especially targeting Dier and they had great success, if they were on their game they'd have buried Spurs.
 
How about starting with a back four but switching to a back three whilst in possession by pushing the fullbacks up and having a midfielder drop in? Does that count?

In terms of a more traditional 3 at the back, I'm inclined to agree with the sentiment that the it generally tends to be a temporary hack rather than a long-term solution.

It will be interesting to see how long it lasts at Chelsea under Conte and at Hoffenheim who are doing well.
 
Jonathan Wilson chimed in:

Brendan Rodgers, the beauty of 3-4-2-1 and its potency as a tactical weapon
Chelsea and Manchester City have adopted this formation but it was a fraught night in Basel that caused the former Liverpool manager to set a growing trend

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In a modern world in which style so often matters more than substance – and at times neither seems to matter much at all – moments of significance can be lost amid the swirl. It’s easy to dismiss Brendan Rodgers’ last full season at Liverpool: the ineffectiveness of Mario Balotelli, the falling out with Raheem Sterling, the final-day humiliation at Stoke … and yet it also included a nugget of genuine tactical innovation. It’s not to say that Antonio Conte, Pep Guardiola or Serbia’s Slavoljub Muslin have copied Rodgers or have in any way learned directly from him to point out that all have, this season, employed some of his model with success – and Rodgers, it might also be pointed out, was inspired by Paulo Sousa.
Rodgers, the story went, was fretting after Liverpool’s 3-1 defeat away to Crystal Palace. Balotelli had proved himself unwilling or unable to lead the press. Rickie Lambert didn’t seem mobile enough to do so. Rodgers turned over ideas in his mind, sustained only by tea and toast. He kept thinking back to the 1-0 defeat against Basel earlier in the season, when an injury to Behrang Safari led them to switch to a back three. Basel’s new shape caused Liverpool, operating a 4-2-3-1, major problems.

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At an abstract level, all tactics are about space. Where is it? How can it best be denied the opposition? How can it best be exploited?
4-2-3-1 is popular because it achieves a fairly regular spread of players across the pitch and is flexible. It does, though, have one obvious potential weakness: that space between the wide forwards and the full-backs, outside the two holding midfielders but too narrow for the full-backs to combat without risking leaving a channel outside them for an opposing full-back or wing-back to overlap into. No blanket is ever quite big enough to cover all of the pitch and, with a 4-2-3-1, that’s where the principal gap is. It’s also there in a 4-3-3 unless the midfield three lies very deep and even, to an extent, in a 4-4-2.
Playing two creators in that three-quarter line in the old inside-forward positions naturally exploits that pocket and immediately creates confusion in an opposing 4-2-3-1. It could be argued that two holding players should be able to combat them as wing-halves once did but that risks them being dragged out of position, creating space for a centre-forward dropping off or a runner from deep in that most vital zone, the central area just outside the box.
That those channels between the centre-back and the full-back are vulnerable is no great revelation. The vast majority of strike pairings would look to probe in those areas. Pulling them deeper, into the gap between defensive and midfield zones, complicated matters for the defending side even further, which is why the Christmas Tree formation, the 4-3-2-1, pioneered by Co Adriaanse at Den Haag, practised briefly by England under Terry Venables and dissected in his Coverciano thesis by Carlo Ancelotti, enjoyed a surge of popularity in the early 90s.
The problem with the Christmas Tree, though, was that, even with attacking full-backs, it lacked width and so was relatively easy to shut down. This was what Rodgers recognised watching Basel after Derlis González had come on for Safari. Add a third centre-back and the full-backs could be pushed much higher, as wing-backs and beyond.
And so was born the 3-4-2-1.
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Liverpool never quite got the defensive side of the formation right but Philippe Coutinho and Adam Lallana prospered in those inside-forward roles, with Sterling a nominal centre-forward who could drop back and exploit any space they created by dragging holding midfielders out of position. Liverpool played like that first away at Old Trafford and, thwarted by David de Gea, lost 3-0. They took 33 points from their following 13 games, though, before morale collapsed in the final couple of weeks of the season.
Eden Hazard and Pedro have benefited from a similar formation at Chelsea in the last five games – and they do seem very quickly to have got the defensive part of the system right, helped in no small part by the tireless work of N’Golo Kanté in protecting the back three.
At Manchester City, the most constant theme (positionally) in Guardiola’s selections this season has been to have a pair of inside forwards (or “free eights” as Kevin De Bruyne, perhaps following his manager, has called them). His preference is for the wide players to be much higher, but he too uses a block of five players as a base, whether a back four with a holder that forms a 3-2 shape when in possession (either by the holder dropping and the full-backs tucking in, or by a central defender stepping up) or, more straightforwardly, a back three and two holding midfielders. Serbia too, under Muslin, have taken to deploying Dusan Tadic and Filip Kostic in inside-forward roles behind Aleksandar Mitrovic in a 3-4-2-1.
In time, history suggests, opponents will work out a way of combatting that twin playmaker threat but, for now, it is a potent weapon still in its infancy, a means of exploiting weaknesses that had long lain unexposed in systems that use a back four.
 
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