Joe Sideways
- Thread starter Piedro
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How many assists did he get though?
Oooooooooooo grumble.
So:
1 – We’re picking on Joe Allen? Really? I’d have started with umpteen other players before we got to Allen. In fact, I wouldn’t have even got to Allen. After Suarez, he’s been our best player this season.
2 – He’s playing out of position. I’m happy to point to my stance on Allen and where his best position was/is when I first banged on about him months/years ago – so this response isn’t a new excuse for him. He’s an attacking midfielder, not in the Kaka sense, but in the “I’m not a defensive midfielder” like Makelele/Mascherano style, or in the “I’m not a stand here and dictate the passing tempo” way of an Alonso or Carrick way for example.
He’s an infinitely better player when he’s linking higher up the pitch with the forward 3. We’ve not got to see much of this yet in a red shirt, but we will. Lucas will be back some day and Allen will be shoo’d up the pitch. Where you’ll see him be on the end of (and I’m going to get training-ground here for a minute so you might want to avert your eyes) ‘the 3rd pass’ as opposed to the 2nd pass’ which he’s currently on the receiving end of.
i.e. Keeper to centre-back/full-back is the 1st pass, CB to holding midfielder is the 2nd pass. At Chelsea, Mikel is just about always the recipient of the 2nd pass. At Barca it’s Busquests, etc. Swansea, Britten. At Liverpool, it should be Lucas. But he’s fucked, so we’ve asked Allen to perform that role because A) we have no one else B) it would be waaaay too deep for Gerrard to drop and C) Sahin is shite defensively and Rodgers trusts Allen more. Imagine Silva trying to play in the Barry role, that’s not a million miles off what we’ve got. At Swansea, Allen played more forward passes and more final-third passes than any other midfielder. That’s his schtick.
There are several roles for the 2nd pass/Holding midfielder (Allen, Carrick at home, Mikel, Busquets): stay in the centre of the ground and provide protection to the back four, double up with your full-back when the opposition winger has it, pick it up from the centre-halves, and never ever give the ball away. The last point should have been bolded. Everything else is like a distant 100th in importance.
Anyway, back to the original point of this number 2; he’s not a DM. But he’s that good a footballer he can play there, and still look a fucking treat. He wins the ball back (without going to ground, another joy of mine), he covers defensively, he keeps the ball 99% of the time, and he works hard. He’s not a liability, an arsehole, a lazy cunt, or a moaner. He’s a top first-class footballer in every respect. He’s worth twice the 15M we paid.
3 – He’s playing in a dysfunctional midfield 3. Gerrard shouldn’t be where he is, and on the evidence thus far – Sahin can’t play that AM role. I’d swap Gerrard and Sahin around but that’s for another discussion. We’ve got 3 highly talented midfielders all playing in the wrong position. No one dictating tempo, no patterns of play, no dragging midfielders out of position, no real-movement forward, and everything ushered to Suarez and/or Sterling and crossing of fingers. It’s a crap midfield 3, and an ordinary side negates it. I pointed out this would happen weeks back- you drop your four/4 midfielders deep, limit the space in between the lines for Suarez, and provide extra protection on the side Sterling’s at – and you’ve pretty much stopped us. Sahin’s too immobile, Suso comes in ALL the time, Wisdom offers (and I like the kid so I’ll be polite here() absolutely nothing wide and on the overlap so in all summation – it’s really not that hard to prevent us from creating chances. As Keniget pointed out in another thread – all Suarez’s chances are of his own making; a demining indictment.
But back to Allen. When he’s got it, his options are fucking limited. He gives it to Gerrard who’s in the position where the game should be revolving around him – the Alonso position, Schweinsteiger, Arteta – and it’s not. Gerrard’s a loose cannon. Lashing balls here and there. He charges around one minute, plays it backwards the next. He’s as close to performing that role as I am. Benitez figured him out; he plays in bursts and whilst he can do a defensive shift cos he’s that good a footballer, why put one of the world’s best attacking footballers into a role that some other cunt can do? Stick him higher up the pitch and let him influence around the goal.
So anyway, back to Allen again; He gives it to Wisdom and he’ll get it straight back to his feet within 5 seconds cos if you’re looking for a fucking crab in our team it’s the right-back. He gives it to Sterling and the kid has 4 players hanging off him.
Allen’s getting fucked in that role of his cos he’s trying to play 2 roles. In a 4-3-3 the job of the DM/holding player is NOT to dictate tempo and play the passes. That’s the role Gerrard’s in, and he’s not doing it. So he gives it sideways to Gerrard expecting him to be able to play and play and play. It doesn’t happen.
Allen could even do it better than Gerrard. When Sigurdsson came into Swansea last year and hit form, Allen got dropped deeper into that role, and did it wonderfully. Anyway, I’m digressing. Again.
4 – He has a dysfunctional, new forward 3 playing in front of him. As talented as Suarez, Sterling and Suso are – they’ve played less than a handful of games together, 2/3rd of them are children, and they all play in a very similar style. None of them are happy to play up on the last line of the defender. They all drop deep into the gaps between defence and midfield which is easy to defend, and because Sterling and Suso are on the ‘opposite’ sides for wingers, they’re natural inclination is to come inside – especially Suso. So Allen (assuming the role Gerrard should be doing) has tight spaces to pass it into. It’ll invariably come straight back at him. To get around this he tries to use the full-backs who should be able to carry it forward. That pass to a full-back is nearly always going to be a sideways one. There’s not a lot he can do about it. Wisdom doesn’t go forward, Suso’s in a tight spot, so it comes back.
5 – The inverted 3. Since arsenal handed our arses to us on a plate at Anfield, Rodgers has inverted the midfield 3. He started the season with one sitting, two attacking which is what he had so brilliantly at Swansea last year with Britton sitting, and Allen & Sigurdsson further forward. So we had Lucas deep, Allen and Gerrard forward – then two things happened – we got fucking humped early and conceded goals from everywhere, and Lucas got injured. So to stem the tide, to try to retain control of games, and given that neither of Lucas or Gerrard are natural DM’s, he went two sitting.
I don’t like it, I don’t think Rodgers likes it, but until Lucas is back and match fit – we’re stuck with it. Whilst it means we’ve conceded less goals, and gained better control of games – our possession stats are up significantly since the first 2 or 3 games of the season, we’ve also offered less going forward. There’s one less midfielder in the opposition’s half – that has an effect. Less options, less people for the opposition to mark, everything’s always in front of the opposition, the triangle passing is non-existent, and less support for the forward 3. Let’s say we’re playing against Chelsea for example, and Lucas has the ball – in Rodgers ideal world, he wants this:
--------Gerrard----------Mikel----------Allen----------
---------------------------Lucas--------------------------
Mikel’s fucked. He can’t cover both Gerrard and Allen so it means a Chelsea full-back or CB gets dragged out, which is perfect for us.
Here’s what happened on Sunday:
-----------------Sahin-------Perch-------------------------
-----------------Cabaye------Gerrard--------------------
--------------------Allen----------------------------------
Allen’s got fewer options. Newcastle’s back four can stay in position, and we’re just shunting the ball about from side to side and Newcastle have it all in front of them. (Just to note, the second position can work if Sahin is Silva, or Rooney, but he’s not so fuck that).
6 - He also seems to be playing every game which is a worry and is bound to catch up on him. why did he play last week against Swansea? That was fucking stupid. Gerrard and Suarez got a rest, the fact that Allen is so dependable is almost playing against him. There's a reason why he looked jaded on Sunday; he's probably fucking wrecked from playing twice a week and carrying the rest of the midfield while he's at it.
7 – Possession is king. Here’s one for you; keeping the ball and passing it sideways isn’t actually the worst thing on Earth. Firstly; I don’t actually think Allen does pass the ball sideways as much as you’re making out. I don’t have a Guardian chalkboard or stats thing to prove this, but my guess is that he’s not the crab you’re making him out to be, but anyway – even if he was, is it really that bad? Do you think the Barca fans are annoyed at Busquets for not looking for Charlie Adam-esque crossfield pings? What is so wrong with keeping the ball? I’ll never get why people get annoyed at this. Ronnie Whelan passed it sideways, Paul Scholes passes it sideways, Roy Keane, Bryan Robson, Xabi Alonso, Manu Petit, etc etc. If somebody can explain to me why keeping the ball is a bad thing, I’m happy to hear it.
Our problems don’t revolve around Joe Allen keeping the ball I can tell you that. The inexperienced front 3, the shite, dysfunctional midfield, our one attacking full-back, our piss-arsed ‘squad’, our lack of money, our poor record of buying players, and our move to a 4th different footballing ‘system’ in 4 odd years are our problems. Calling out one of the best players we’ve bought in a decade for not playing more adventurous passes wouldn’t make it onto my list of issues anyway.
So:
1 – We’re picking on Joe Allen? Really? I’d have started with umpteen other players before we got to Allen. In fact, I wouldn’t have even got to Allen. After Suarez, he’s been our best player this season.
2 – He’s playing out of position. I’m happy to point to my stance on Allen and where his best position was/is when I first banged on about him months/years ago – so this response isn’t a new excuse for him. He’s an attacking midfielder, not in the Kaka sense, but in the “I’m not a defensive midfielder” like Makelele/Mascherano style, or in the “I’m not a stand here and dictate the passing tempo” way of an Alonso or Carrick way for example.
He’s an infinitely better player when he’s linking higher up the pitch with the forward 3. We’ve not got to see much of this yet in a red shirt, but we will. Lucas will be back some day and Allen will be shoo’d up the pitch. Where you’ll see him be on the end of (and I’m going to get training-ground here for a minute so you might want to avert your eyes) ‘the 3rd pass’ as opposed to the 2nd pass’ which he’s currently on the receiving end of.
i.e. Keeper to centre-back/full-back is the 1st pass, CB to holding midfielder is the 2nd pass. At Chelsea, Mikel is just about always the recipient of the 2nd pass. At Barca it’s Busquests, etc. Swansea, Britten. At Liverpool, it should be Lucas. But he’s fucked, so we’ve asked Allen to perform that role because A) we have no one else B) it would be waaaay too deep for Gerrard to drop and C) Sahin is shite defensively and Rodgers trusts Allen more. Imagine Silva trying to play in the Barry role, that’s not a million miles off what we’ve got. At Swansea, Allen played more forward passes and more final-third passes than any other midfielder. That’s his schtick.
There are several roles for the 2nd pass/Holding midfielder (Allen, Carrick at home, Mikel, Busquets): stay in the centre of the ground and provide protection to the back four, double up with your full-back when the opposition winger has it, pick it up from the centre-halves, and never ever give the ball away. The last point should have been bolded. Everything else is like a distant 100th in importance.
Anyway, back to the original point of this number 2; he’s not a DM. But he’s that good a footballer he can play there, and still look a fucking treat. He wins the ball back (without going to ground, another joy of mine), he covers defensively, he keeps the ball 99% of the time, and he works hard. He’s not a liability, an arsehole, a lazy cunt, or a moaner. He’s a top first-class footballer in every respect. He’s worth twice the 15M we paid.
3 – He’s playing in a dysfunctional midfield 3. Gerrard shouldn’t be where he is, and on the evidence thus far – Sahin can’t play that AM role. I’d swap Gerrard and Sahin around but that’s for another discussion. We’ve got 3 highly talented midfielders all playing in the wrong position. No one dictating tempo, no patterns of play, no dragging midfielders out of position, no real-movement forward, and everything ushered to Suarez and/or Sterling and crossing of fingers. It’s a crap midfield 3, and an ordinary side negates it. I pointed out this would happen weeks back- you drop your four/4 midfielders deep, limit the space in between the lines for Suarez, and provide extra protection on the side Sterling’s at – and you’ve pretty much stopped us. Sahin’s too immobile, Suso comes in ALL the time, Wisdom offers (and I like the kid so I’ll be polite here() absolutely nothing wide and on the overlap so in all summation – it’s really not that hard to prevent us from creating chances. As Keniget pointed out in another thread – all Suarez’s chances are of his own making; a demining indictment.
But back to Allen. When he’s got it, his options are fucking limited. He gives it to Gerrard who’s in the position where the game should be revolving around him – the Alonso position, Schweinsteiger, Arteta – and it’s not. Gerrard’s a loose cannon. Lashing balls here and there. He charges around one minute, plays it backwards the next. He’s as close to performing that role as I am. Benitez figured him out; he plays in bursts and whilst he can do a defensive shift cos he’s that good a footballer, why put one of the world’s best attacking footballers into a role that some other cunt can do? Stick him higher up the pitch and let him influence around the goal.
So anyway, back to Allen again; He gives it to Wisdom and he’ll get it straight back to his feet within 5 seconds cos if you’re looking for a fucking crab in our team it’s the right-back. He gives it to Sterling and the kid has 4 players hanging off him.
Allen’s getting fucked in that role of his cos he’s trying to play 2 roles. In a 4-3-3 the job of the DM/holding player is NOT to dictate tempo and play the passes. That’s the role Gerrard’s in, and he’s not doing it. So he gives it sideways to Gerrard expecting him to be able to play and play and play. It doesn’t happen.
Allen could even do it better than Gerrard. When Sigurdsson came into Swansea last year and hit form, Allen got dropped deeper into that role, and did it wonderfully. Anyway, I’m digressing. Again.
4 – He has a dysfunctional, new forward 3 playing in front of him. As talented as Suarez, Sterling and Suso are – they’ve played less than a handful of games together, 2/3rd of them are children, and they all play in a very similar style. None of them are happy to play up on the last line of the defender. They all drop deep into the gaps between defence and midfield which is easy to defend, and because Sterling and Suso are on the ‘opposite’ sides for wingers, they’re natural inclination is to come inside – especially Suso. So Allen (assuming the role Gerrard should be doing) has tight spaces to pass it into. It’ll invariably come straight back at him. To get around this he tries to use the full-backs who should be able to carry it forward. That pass to a full-back is nearly always going to be a sideways one. There’s not a lot he can do about it. Wisdom doesn’t go forward, Suso’s in a tight spot, so it comes back.
5 – The inverted 3. Since arsenal handed our arses to us on a plate at Anfield, Rodgers has inverted the midfield 3. He started the season with one sitting, two attacking which is what he had so brilliantly at Swansea last year with Britton sitting, and Allen & Sigurdsson further forward. So we had Lucas deep, Allen and Gerrard forward – then two things happened – we got fucking humped early and conceded goals from everywhere, and Lucas got injured. So to stem the tide, to try to retain control of games, and given that neither of Lucas or Gerrard are natural DM’s, he went two sitting.
I don’t like it, I don’t think Rodgers likes it, but until Lucas is back and match fit – we’re stuck with it. Whilst it means we’ve conceded less goals, and gained better control of games – our possession stats are up significantly since the first 2 or 3 games of the season, we’ve also offered less going forward. There’s one less midfielder in the opposition’s half – that has an effect. Less options, less people for the opposition to mark, everything’s always in front of the opposition, the triangle passing is non-existent, and less support for the forward 3. Let’s say we’re playing against Chelsea for example, and Lucas has the ball – in Rodgers ideal world, he wants this:
--------Gerrard----------Mikel----------Allen----------
---------------------------Lucas--------------------------
Mikel’s fucked. He can’t cover both Gerrard and Allen so it means a Chelsea full-back or CB gets dragged out, which is perfect for us.
Here’s what happened on Sunday:
-----------------Sahin-------Perch-------------------------
-----------------Cabaye------Gerrard--------------------
--------------------Allen----------------------------------
Allen’s got fewer options. Newcastle’s back four can stay in position, and we’re just shunting the ball about from side to side and Newcastle have it all in front of them. (Just to note, the second position can work if Sahin is Silva, or Rooney, but he’s not so fuck that).
6 - He also seems to be playing every game which is a worry and is bound to catch up on him. why did he play last week against Swansea? That was fucking stupid. Gerrard and Suarez got a rest, the fact that Allen is so dependable is almost playing against him. There's a reason why he looked jaded on Sunday; he's probably fucking wrecked from playing twice a week and carrying the rest of the midfield while he's at it.
7 – Possession is king. Here’s one for you; keeping the ball and passing it sideways isn’t actually the worst thing on Earth. Firstly; I don’t actually think Allen does pass the ball sideways as much as you’re making out. I don’t have a Guardian chalkboard or stats thing to prove this, but my guess is that he’s not the crab you’re making him out to be, but anyway – even if he was, is it really that bad? Do you think the Barca fans are annoyed at Busquets for not looking for Charlie Adam-esque crossfield pings? What is so wrong with keeping the ball? I’ll never get why people get annoyed at this. Ronnie Whelan passed it sideways, Paul Scholes passes it sideways, Roy Keane, Bryan Robson, Xabi Alonso, Manu Petit, etc etc. If somebody can explain to me why keeping the ball is a bad thing, I’m happy to hear it.
Our problems don’t revolve around Joe Allen keeping the ball I can tell you that. The inexperienced front 3, the shite, dysfunctional midfield, our one attacking full-back, our piss-arsed ‘squad’, our lack of money, our poor record of buying players, and our move to a 4th different footballing ‘system’ in 4 odd years are our problems. Calling out one of the best players we’ve bought in a decade for not playing more adventurous passes wouldn’t make it onto my list of issues anyway.
But if Ryan can see it, no wonder the 'real' professional managers have figured us out.
What you said is what I said 3 months ago.
So in essence a DM signing in Janurary is most important for us above anything else followed by an attack minded full book.
Why didn't we bring back Spearing once Lucas got injured?
Why didn't we bring back Spearing once Lucas got injured?
No - the forward to play through the middle is more important - we don't have one. We have DM, he's just injured.
Spearing isn't good enough and never will be.
Besides we can't have to people under 4ft in central midfield.
Yep, excellent post by Ryan.
I liked the '3rd pass' reference. It's something I totally agree on. On a side note, me and God_23 used always claim that Alonso was very effective at being the person who supplied the assist to the assist.
I'm looking forward to seeing Joe Allen with Lucas behind him.
I liked the '3rd pass' reference. It's something I totally agree on. On a side note, me and God_23 used always claim that Alonso was very effective at being the person who supplied the assist to the assist.
I'm looking forward to seeing Joe Allen with Lucas behind him.
And where's Oncy?
Kept busy by the mobile phone industry
He's deleted me off Facebook as well the cock swinging nancy.
So *that*'s what you had in mind when you wondered in the other thread whether girls are worth it.
No sweat mate. It took me 3 days to muster up a reply cos I was nursing the king kong of hangovers myself.
Anyway, looks like I'm home for a bit over Xmas, so i'll have a look at the games on and see if I can make it over mate.
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