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James Lawton: Dalglish has turned to an old Shankly trick...

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robinhood

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James Lawton: Dalglish has turned to an old Shankly trick... making Liverpool's players justify their inclusion

'What was discouraging,' says Ian St John, 'was that the same mistakes were being made byHoullier, and then Benitez and Hodgson'


Tuesday, 8 February 2011

A wild wind blew across the Mersey yesterday, scattering gulls and buffeting the river traffic, but then every gust of it seemed to bring a little more contentment. It was as though something as permanent as the Liver Building had gone missing but had now been put back in place.

This sense of restored perspective was particularly keen in the Wirral home of Ian St John, who was first in the line of heroes created by the work and the legacy of Bill Shankly. "It feels a bit like waking up from a nightmare," he said.

Most encouraging for the man who 50 years ago was whisked away from his native Motherwell in the Rolls-Royce of the Liverpool chairman Sid Reakes – and in the back seat had the words of Shankly drumming into his ears every mile of the way to Anfield – was that he saw not only a psychologically stunning victory at Stamford Bridge on Sunday, but also the clearest evidence that Kenny Dalglish had re-established a founding principle of those first great years.

"Shanks," said St John, "had a thousand sayings, and many of them were hilarious. But there wasn't a match before which he didn't say one thing with deadly seriousness. It didn't matter who you were, and what you had done in the last game, you were told, 'Justify your inclusion.' He spat it out.
"Watching Liverpool beat Chelsea on Sunday – and beating them well in so many ways, not least in that each player was more committed to what he was doing and clear about his purpose – I kept thinking, 'Kenny is halfway there already, he has done the most important thing – he has made the players responsible for their own performances, yes, he has said, 'Justify your inclusion.' Of course, it was something so much easier to say with Fernando Torres gone. Yes, you knew he was a player of great talent and that at any time he might do something remarkable – but one fact was apparent for so long. His inclusion was automatic. He didn't have to justify it and that is something that destroys the rest of the players.

"I believe Liverpool can put that behind them now. Obviously, Kenny needs more players, but in the meantime he has shown that he can get so much more out of the ones he has."

St John has been for some years now an ambivalent witness of the club he served so well for so long.

Gérard Houllier railed against his criticisms and Rafa Benitez was also angered when the old player, having paid his respects to the initial Champions League success, despaired of the team's failure to make an authentic title challenge in six years of seeping decline. "What was so discouraging," says St John, "was that the same old mistakes were happening under Houllier and then Benitez and Roy Hodgson in his own brief time. You just couldn't see anyone getting consistently better."

But on Sunday, St John noted something remarkable, more thrilling in its way even than the huge performance of the returning Jamie Carragher and the latest example of the match-winning marksmanship of Raul Meireles.

He saw Lucas look like a midfield player, a real one who involved himself in joined-up moves, who passed the ball and then found more advanced and menacing positions with something that looked like genuine conviction.

"Kenny doesn't pretend to be a coach," St John goes on. "He's gone out and got himself a top one in Steve Clarke. Kenny doesn't take training but he watches training, he sees what's happening and when I saw Lucas on Sunday I said to myself, 'Yes, he's had a word with the lad. He's told him where he isn't coming up to scratch. He's told him that there really isn't any such thing as a withdrawn midfielder because every formation anyone ever dreamt up is changed by the movement of the ball and the opposing team.'

"No, there's no withdrawn midfielder in the books of football men like Kenny. There are midfielders with responsibilities, and they include the ability to adapt to the moving game.

"For a long time I'd said that as far as I was concerned Lucas could get on the next boat to wherever he came from – but not on Sunday, the boy looked as though he could play and that he really wanted to play. Of course, he has to prove himself between now and the end of the season, but you could see things happening, enough of them to make you wonder about old judgements."

St John, who once complained that the football of Houllier had turned Anfield into an arena filled not with some of the most boisterously witty fans in the land but so many zombies, sees little point in disinterring the polemics of the Benitez departure. "It was clear enough he had run his course in that last season," says St John, "and it's a bit bizarre that he's talking about returning to his old job. You have to say that already Kenny Dalglish has reminded us of what went missing in recent years."

What precisely? Maybe more than anything the understanding that players did not have to be taught how to play but how to grow stronger in their self-belief and demands placed on themselves. They didn't have to be chivvied into minute positional changes in front of a full house. They didn't have to feel part of some endless seminar, a sensation experienced by at least some of the Liverpool players in the dog days of Benitez and Hodgson and, it is reasonable to presume, those of Internazionale in the former's last days at San Siro.

Interestingly, the Internazionale goalkeeper Julio Cesar declared after Sunday's 5-3 victory over Roma, which took them still closer to leaders Milan: "Everything feels better, brighter now." There are similar stories emerging from Liverpool's recently sombre Melwood training ground. They include reports of players entering the facility with smiles on their faces, and leaving some hours later in more or less the same condition.

Heaven knows where it will all end but then at least one Saint of impeccable antecedents believes at least a little legitimate faith has been restored
 
I said something similar... Dalglish is definitely tuning into the great man's philosophy, he's making the players 'believe'. Believing they are a great team, that they should smash everything that is put in front of them... His saying from last month summed it up.

"Everybody here wants the same thing, and that's to win games. We can do that if we all stick together"
 
I'm not posting this for Lawton's comments. St John's quotes are the interesting bit.

Particularly his comments about Lucas. I've been firmly in the anti-Lucas camp for ages, but have also said on a few occasions that he might not be a bad player if he was allowed to attack, because he looks better at that.

On Sunday he did look a decent player at times.

Also the point about Kenny restoring something (something kind of unspecified by St John, but "proper football" is what he appears to be suggesting) that has been lost since Evans left.
 
the thing that really comes across to me is that Dalglish has made the players feel privileged to be playing for a club like Liverpool, he mentions the club in every interview.

Of course we do not want to go on about our history constantly but it is important for the players to respect it and feel lucky to be here.

It maybe a case that we are a particular type of club which is better suited to managers from within and Dalglish's return will start the boot room mentality again, maybe with Carra next.

We are special, not just an ordinary club
 
It's a combination of pass and move and man-management.

The game is probably about that simple really.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44139.msg1281810#msg1281810 date=1297176757]
It's a combination of pass and move and man-management.

The game is probably about that simple really.
[/quote]

I do think it is. It really gets over complicated sometimes. Get good players. Teach them how to pass and move the ball. Instill some self belief into them. Win games.
 
I think it is a strange time to say it is as simple as pass and move and man management just after we nullified Chelsea through magnificent tactics that didn't give a sniff to one of the most fearsome collection of strikers in Europe. Yes those things are important, but good tactics, especially in really testing away days, are crucial.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=44139.msg1281849#msg1281849 date=1297179992]
I think it is a strange time to say it is as simple as pass and move and man management just after we nullified Chelsea through magnificent tactics that didn't give a sniff to one of the most fearsome collection of strikers in Europe. Yes those things are important, but good tactics, especially in really testing away days, are crucial.
[/quote]

I agree that the game on Sunday had tactics all over it.
However, I also think it's fair to say that we were over tactical and almost "programmed" for long periods under Rafa and GH. Rafa in particular is a control freak - he needs to control every movement of his players, which damages at times.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=44139.msg1281849#msg1281849 date=1297179992]
I think it is a strange time to say it is as simple as pass and move and man management just after we nullified Chelsea through magnificent tactics that didn't give a sniff to one of the most fearsome collection of strikers in Europe. Yes those things are important, but good tactics, especially in really testing away days, are crucial.
[/quote]

OK, getting men behind the ball and pressing the opposition can go in there too.

But pass and move and man management had as much to do with the win as that did.
 
[quote author=jimmy link=topic=44139.msg1281873#msg1281873 date=1297183263]

I agree that the game on Sunday had tactics all over it.[/quote]

And yet you both speak of these "tactics" in extremely vague terms.
 
I reckon we're much less "tactical" now than we have been for ages, and the tactics we showed for that game, we showed agains Stoke and we'll show against Wigan.

Namely: pass and move, press the opposition (defend as a team) and believe in ourselves enough to be very disciplined and keep looking for the win even if it isn't coming yet.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44139.msg1281900#msg1281900 date=1297185403]
[quote author=jimmy link=topic=44139.msg1281873#msg1281873 date=1297183263]

I agree that the game on Sunday had tactics all over it.[/quote]

And yet you both speak of these "tactics" in extremely vague terms.
[/quote]

I was referring to the 3 CBs we played to match their frontline. Out of these 3 only one is a legitimate pass and move player.
Towards the end of his previous term as manager, Kenny used to play a lot of defensive players for away games, and we hardly played pass and move in some of those games (e.g. Milwall away, Wimbledon away etc.)

I hope we play a different more attacking formation against Wigan at home. We will hopefully see Suarez playing too.
 
Am I the only one who gets annoyed when people say stuff like "football is simple really", "just tell the boys to pass the ball and have fun" etc.
Clearly the modern game is anything but simple. It is sophisticated, complex and fucking hard. Managing a top level team has never been more demanding, requiring not just tactical nous of the highest level, but also excellent man management skills and an ability to deal with the media. Kenny is surrounding himself with quality staff like Steve Clarke for a reason.
 
You're right to say that managing a team in this day and age is far from simple, but that doesn't apply to what they're being asked to do. Part of the reason why Kenny's predecessors fell short is that they overcomplicated things. Have another read through the article in robinhood's first post above, especially the third para.from the end, beginning "What precisely?".
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44139.msg1281900#msg1281900 date=1297185403]
[quote author=jimmy link=topic=44139.msg1281873#msg1281873 date=1297183263]

I agree that the game on Sunday had tactics all over it.[/quote]

And yet you both speak of these "tactics" in extremely vague terms.
[/quote]

Erm, do you want to produce a fucking chalkboard Robin? Listen to Carra's interview after the game. It was stuff like "we all knew our jobs" and such like. Their 'job' wasn't to "go out and enjoy yersels lads", but was a role specifically tailored for the match. Part of Clarke's role is to coach the players to perform in a role designed for each specific game. That is how Clarke earns his money. Yes, of course pass and move is part of the equation but to dismiss tactics when they clearly had a huge part to play in the victory on Sunday is ludicrous.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44139.msg1281810#msg1281810 date=1297176757]
It's a combination of pass and move and man-management.

The game is probably about that simple really.
[/quote]

When Kenny was appointed I used the 'Football is a simple game' quote in defence of how the fact he'd been out of managing didnt matter, to which someone said that football science had moved on that much that it wasnt true any more.

Riiiigggghhhhhtt.
 
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=44139.msg1282020#msg1282020 date=1297195455]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44139.msg1281810#msg1281810 date=1297176757]
It's a combination of pass and move and man-management.

The game is probably about that simple really.
[/quote]

When Kenny was appointed I used the 'Football is a simple game' quote in defence of how the fact he'd been out of managing didnt matter, to which someone said that football science had moved on that much that it wasnt true any more.

Riiiigggghhhhhtt.
[/quote]
Why do you think Kenny appointed Steve Clarke? Besides, he was never really out of it, he just wasnt the gaffer. I feel that when people say football is a simple game, they devalue all the hard work going on behind the scenes.
 
Ironically, the whole "it's a simple game" argument was the core of defence for Roy's appointment in the summer. He'll get us back to basics, he'll stay away from overcomplicated foreign tactics, get the most out of the players etc. etc. I think we'd best stay clear of that now.
 
I think we all have different definitions for "simple" and we're all applying it to different aspects of the game; whatever...:

The game we are playing these days is built on the straightforward concept of the passing, teamwork-oriented game.

It is not Benitez's often mangled, always convoluted, over-structured and ultra-rigid autistic version of continental football.

Forget Hodgson, he wasn't up to it in many ways so he doesn't really even qualify for the discussion as we never actually saw what he wanted to achieve.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=44139.msg1282516#msg1282516 date=1297257548]
It is not Benitez's often mangled, always convoluted, over-structured and ultra-rigid autistic version of continental football.

[/quote]

at it's very best it's very effective. away wins at nou camp and bernabeu is pretty incredible.
 
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