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Is there a post match thread?

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Ryan

Ryan

The Prophet
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(Feel free to merge this if there is one)

Hmmm, I’m not as bullish as others about that it seems.

I thought we were poor, and were fortunate to get a draw. Obviously the ‘offside’ goal would have been a tasty fucking treat, but we didn’t deserve it, and I actually thought Skrtel’s tackle on Baines was a penalty – but I might be in the minority with that one.

More than anything though – that was deeply frustrating. We simply stopped playing after the second goal. Conceded possession, territory, and balls. I sat shouting at the TV time and time again for us to keep the fucking ball, and to move up the bastarding pitch. Has anyone discussed or answered why we were so fucking deep? Why our midfield sat so far back that there was no gap in the hole – despite the fact Everton were barely playing a number 10? Why it took so long to bring Henderson on when Wisdom was clearly getting raped? Why were continually thumped long balls forward to an isolated forward? So much of yesterday was anathema to what Rodgers has preached and brought that I actually thought we were being managed by fucking Woy again.

It didn’t have to be that way. Dominated the first 20 minutes, pinged passes about – at a fucking decent tempo too, dragged their centre-backs out of position, and went 2-0 up. Then we inexplicably shat ourselves and sat back. I did not understand what I was watching. Why did we stop playing the ball? Why did we sit so fucking deep? Continually taking the safe option and playing it back to Jones all day long instead of trying to play our way out. Incredibly frustrating.

To put it into statistics:
-Yesterday was the first time this season our pass completion rate has dropped below 80%
-We completed 314 passes yesterday. 180 less than this time last week against Reading. And if you think I’m being unfair by selecting a home game against Reading, then take our game against the PL Champions 2 months back (our 2nd game under Rodgers) when we completed 462.
-We played more long balls than Everton. True fact.
-We played more incomplete passes than at any other stage of this season.

And then there’s what a fucking stats board doesn’t need to tell you – that we stood on the edge of our box inviting Everton on all day long. Bringing on Coates to control the aerial threat was a solid idea, but why not bring on someone who can press Baines and stop the fucking crosses coming in in the first place? Why not tell your fucking midfielders to push on? Christ.

Here's Rodgers comments after his Swansea side last season went 2-0 up away to Wolves and ended up drawing 2-2: "It felt like a defeat. We stopped playing & we just needed to manage the game better, and our job is to make sure the two points we dropped today don't cost us at the end of the season."

Same rules apply here Brendan.

It’s games like that – in the fucking middle of them when everyone else is shitting themselves that you really miss someone like a Carragher. It was crying out for his organisational skills at the back to move us forward and to take up better positions. A bit of leadership. No way would Carragher have taken up the spots Skrtel and Enrique did for their second goal. Where the fuck was Enrique standing? What was he guarding out there? Utter no man’s land. Cover the near post and the uppermost threat you clown. That’s twice this season that’s happened – Agger’s awful positioning against Sunderland for Colback’s cross being the other. We missed leadership, and we missed a presence at the back. You can see why Carragher felt the need to hold Skrtel’s hand and bark instructions at him for the last 3 years – he needs told.

It wasn't just leadership at the back though. Having a set of balls in a game like this isn't how many 50/50's you can throw yourself into, cos there'll be 22 players on the park for whom that's a given. Playing the difficult pass, taking the ball on continually, being the one to break up the fucking humdrum monotony - that's what separates the good from the grunt. And we didn't have anyone yesterday willing to be that guy.

The forward momentum is a worry too. We simply cannot keep hold of the ball when we attack. Countless fucking times it gets lumped to no one, generally impatiently. I don’t mind sterling and Suarez as a front two - they’re tricky, can turn a defender and quick. But going with two only lengthens the gap to the midfield – they’re evn more isolated than normal, so by the time a Gerrard or Shelvey gets up in support, the opposition can flood numbers back.

My other issue is the two sitting midfielders in the midfield 3. The second you invert that triangle, it instantly stunts your attacking momentum. It leaves Sahin/Gerrard/Shelvey (whomever’s playing the advanced role) isolated and we just don’t hold onto the ball in the opposition’s half. It narrows us too. When you play 1 sitting, 2 advanced, it opens space and drags centre backs out. Chelsea are doping it nicely with Mata and Hazard/Ramires at the moment. They’ve always got options. We have few. One advanced midfielder, one striker, and a congested load of fucking opposition midfielders and defenders.

I think when Lucas is back he’s got to bite the bullet and go with 2 advanced again. Teams have worked out that Suso always cuts in from one flank so they shift across their back four slightly meaning there’s always extra cover for the left-back against Sterling (cos Suso’s never gonna go down the opposite line and expose them. BTW – if you want to see two wingers who can go inside and out and stretch a defence all over the place – have a look at Young and Valencia yesterday – nightmare for a back 4). For the most part yesterday, Sterling came up against Baines, Neville and Distin – Everton could afford to double or triple up on him cos Suso didn’t hug the opposite line and bloody Enrique barely bothered to get forward. Baines was probably the best player on the park by the end of it. A clear tactical victory there.

Anyway, they beat us in so many areas I can’t be bothered going on. I found that really frustrating, but hopefully – a complete aberration. A game that was there for the winning, but we shit ourselves and handed the momentum straight to them. You want to compete for top 4, you win games when you’re 2-0 up and in control.
 
I wonder if we kept playing long balls because Reina wasnt playing. Jones kept lumping the ball up when he had the ball. It was frustrating to watch when we kept giving the ball to Everton in the second half.
 
DHSC said:
I wonder if we kept playing long balls because Reina wasnt playing. Jones kept lumping the ball up when he had the ball. It was frustrating to watch when we kept giving the ball to Everton in the second half.
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It was way more than that. Jones distribution was fairly poor, but it was mentality that cost us today. We were 2-0 up and should have been cruising for a victory.
 
Yes I thought we would be comfortable after getting that second goal. I think quite a number of posters touched on the retention bit previously (I remember Fark being one). Well it came back to bite us on the ass this time.
 
Good analysis, Ryan. There is no question that we got completely outplayed in the first half after going 2:0 up. Sahin, Suso and Wisdom got exposed for their inexperience. I wouldn't be too harsh on them, they have probably never experienced anything quite like Merseyside derby before, and there is no way to prepare for the speed, intensity and atmosphere like this in training, you just have to live through your first derby (Sahin played in the Ruhr derby against Schalke, so the intensity wasn't new for him, but Everton's direct style of play probably was to some extent).

I think Rodgers was taking a long view with his team selection. As a coach, there are things you cannot learn about your players in training, but can see only in games like this, under pressure. And the players, even those who failed the exam the first time, will definitely gain from this experience. I think Sterling has responded the best of the bunch, even though he wasn' t far from getting sent off at one point. In the end he showed composure and lack of fear which was great to see. Even with the missed 1 on 1 chance, his idea and timing was exactly right, but just the execution failed. That's how good players miss chances.

After the tactical and personnel changed at half time, we have gradually reduced Everton's pressure and by the end were largely outplaying them and almost won the match. It was a tactical victory of sorts for Rodgers. I don't necessarily think he waited too long to replace Wisdom, central midfield and defense were more urgent and a triple substitution would have been a reckless move. Also, in a big stroke of luck for us, Mirallas, who was excellent, got injured right before half-time and Wisdom had a much easier time dealing with Gueye. I was waiting for Assaidi to come on for the last 15 minutes, but Henderson worked out ok too.

Now I'm sure Rodgers will talk to his players after the game about trusting the system and keeping the ball on the ground even under the biggest pressure. This game clearly showed that the new style is not yet deeply ingrained. This a good learning moment.
 
I think it was simply down to the fact that alot of team expected to be beaten. They were favourites with the bookies too. So to find outselves 2-0 up I think was a shock.

If we had held on for 5 mins it may have been a different game but the goal rattled us and gave them the momentum. We were awful from 2-1 until half time.

The 2nd half was alot better. In terms of the passing stats I think you are being unfair as it was a derby and time on the ball to knock it around is at a premium.

Even the normally composed Allen looked hurried on the ball.

The change in formation helped and Shelvey was decent to start but faded badly. Wisdom should have been taken off at half time for Hendo.

Sterling was immense as was Suarez.
 
More than anything what we saw when we went 2-0 up was a lack of experience (Suso, Wisdom, Sterling, Jones and even Sahin) where Suso went missing, Wisdom bottled it (you could almost see him give up whenever anyone went past him) and Sterling (and Suso) weren't tracking back enough and we stopped our passing game and our control. Panic set in once they scored their first.

The dearth of passing didn't bother me quite so much as it is more or less what I expected in a game of this nature and I'm sure we'll be back to the 'system' next week. However it is surprising that, knowing this was going to be the case, Rodgers still left more experienced players out of the team (Henderson and maybe Downing) though we were unlucky to lose Johnson before KO.

I though Jones had a good game, his positioning is generally very good, and is growing in confidence (though he needs to learn where to punch the bloody ball) ! His distribution however needs a lot of work and his constant long ball kicking was frustrating.

As for the change of system - it came at the right time and I didn't see much of a gap from Sterling/Suarez to MF, especially when Shelvey came on and was driving forward. The fact the game turned in our favour in the last 20-25 mins bears witness to that, we were looking the more likely to score in the last quarter of the match and would have won but for Sterling's aberration and the mental breakdown of the linesman (my conclusion now I've seen the replay again and that he called for off-side). In matches like these it's always going to be close - we could have won it whereas Everton didn't come even close in the last 20 mins.

Enrique was going forward (who crossed it for our first goal ?) until it was 2-0 and he had Fellani (who it seems had been told to target Enrique down our left) in his pocket until Fellani thought 'fuck this for a game of soldiers' and moved in-field. I don't remember any strong Everton attacks coming down our left that we didn't control.

At the end of the match, more than anything else, I felt it was just inexperience, of the young players in the team and of the system, that cost us in the end. I still feel good about the progress we have made and can see us kicking on strongly from here.
 
And because we no longer have a ratings thread :

Jones - 6.5
Enrique - 7
Agger - 7
Skrtel - 7.5
Wisdom - 2 (a bit tough without much support but I thought he mentally lost it, a young lad, he'll recover)
Allen - 6.5
Sahin - 6
Gerrard - 6.5
Suso - 5
Sterling - 6 (4 in the 1H and a 7.5 in the 2H)
Suarez - 8

Shelvey - 7.5
Henderson - 7
 
Oh and for his game in an age in the league 2nd goal aside (which was poor) I thought Enrique was excellant.
 
People forget that we had an average age of 23 years and had 5 derby debutants. The last 20-25 mins in the first half it was boys vs men.
2nd half was much much better.
 
Enrique cost us big time for the second goal, but it's worth applauding Rodgers' rather bold halftime subs and then bringing on Hendo, as we'd struggled down that side throughout the first half and we were getting bombarded aerially. It worked and blunted their threat.

As for the stats point about possession on long balls. It's worth looking at it another way, particularly if you want to compare it to last weeks narrow win. We scored three goals (one of which SHOULD have stood), so being more direct paid off. Stats can be neither here nor there as we've said numerous times, it's how efficient we are with what possession we have. We've managed one goal in each of our last few games, and I'd wager that our possession stats have been in the majority, yet we allowed this to drop yesterday, went more direct and route one and scored three. Horses for courses. Yes it was frustrating to watch at times, but then so is the tippy tappy bollocks where we try and walk it in and 9 times out of 10 it comes to sweet fuck all.
 
Ryan said:
I actually thought Skrtel’s tackle on Baines was a penalty – but I might be in the minority with that one.
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I thought it was 50/50 - Perhaps ref probably waved on as Baines had already got the ball into a dangerous position?

Skittles probably got a wee bit lucky there.
 
LeTallecWiz said:
I thought it was 50/50 - Perhaps ref probably waved on as Baines had already got the ball into a dangerous position?

Skittles probably got a wee bit lucky there.
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I watched the match with three bluenoses and not one of them thought it was a penalty.
 
Sunny said:
I watched the match with three bluenoses and not one of them thought it was a penalty.
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They're probably Liverpool fans at heart ... As I said, I thought it was 50/50 - he took him out but it was after the ball was played into the box. Knowing our 'luck' this year, I wouldn't have been surprised.
 
Ryan you have to be fair to Everton , who pressed our defenders really effectively and aggressively with a man on each so it was nigh on impossible to play the ball out of defence as we have been. As for Enrique he was exactly where he should have been, how you expect the left back to cover the right goal post, he was covering the hole left by Skirtel but admittedly did lose his man, I thought there was alot of good fortune with both of their goals.
If you want to blame anyone blame Jones - as any goalkeeper will tell you you never ever punch the ball back into the area, the goal cost us the match. I thought the game changed when Mereiles went off and we looked much more solid with 3 -5-2 in the second half especially with two up front, and we looked far more dangerous than them.
 
Sunny said:
I watched the match with three bluenoses and not one of them thought it was a penalty.
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I thought it was Sunny ... clearly caught him, I think Skittles got the benefit of the doubt there and it would have been very soft since the ball was no longer anywhere near them.
 
A lot of folks were talking about Rodgers being married to his system. The second half adjustments showed that it wasn't necessarily the case.

I was very pleased to see how we switched and played in the second half. We were clearly short on quality or experience on the bench in the right areas to keep playing his normal system; Rodgers and his staff recovered and got all their decisions right in the second 45 minutes, down to the system we chose, the players we replaced and brought on, and the prioritization of the subs: Suso and Sahin yanked first to allow us to bring in an extra CB and a hardier CM, and Wisdom kept on for a while till the ship steadied, because he now had help in an extra CB playing closer to him (and because we had no RBs on the bench).

Keeping Sterling on but shifting him inwards to play against their centrebacks instead of Baines also gave him a better matchup and eliminated the stress on him having to defend Baines with a yellow. It was a gamble but it paid off. We surrendered the initiative to them in the second half (which they didn't make much use of anyway) but were always a threat on the counter.

Everton had their tails up, smelled blood and we had to adjust, and we did that very well. The five Merseyside derby debutants got an important and useful lesson and I think they're intelligent players who will be better-placed now for the next derby if they're called upon again.
 
Frogfish said:
I thought it was Sunny ... clearly caught him, I think Skittles got the benefit of the doubt there and it would have been very soft since the ball was no longer anywhere near them.
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I think it could have been given myself but the ball had been well released before the tackle even hit
 
Sound analysis Ryan.

The thing about leadership I agree with although Agger should step up in that aspect. When seeing the second goal in replay you will see him shout instructions one or two times Enrique's way but I guess they weren't in Spanish.

I do feel a lot of you guys are being rather kind with Skrtel's contribution or lack thereof on their second. Having seen the replay it's quite clear he moves his body away from the ball instead of trying to block it. Seems a weird decision really, anyone else noticed that?

Perhaps he's afraid to handball like when Agger shrunk to invite Rafael to shoot around him.

We need to stop that.
 
Sunny said:
I think it could have been given myself but the ball had been well released before the tackle even hit
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That's why I said 50/50 - Skrtel's tackle didn't stop Baines from creating the opportunity. What's the actual rule on that? Can a ref whistle for a penalty in a situation where the player is no longer relevant to the play?
 
I think we were poor in this one. I knew it would be a hard fight to keep the ball, and more steel and power would have helped us.

Even if we had a brilliant start with two goals, it felt that they were more or less all over us in the first half. If Mirallas hadn't been injured he could have caused us a lot of harm in the second half. This was the first match all season I felt we weren't up for the game, and it was a good move to take of Suso in the break. Maybe we should have kept Sahin, as he is the one of the midfielders actually going for deep runs into the box, but it felt good to have the Shelvey energy there in the second half as well.

I think we managed to keep them at bay much better in second half, and we have to sort out why the midfielders are not up for the fight in these matches. Teh Everton goals was due to passive play from midfielders more than defenders.
 
Yeah but regardless you just don't do it. Gallas did it for Spurs against Chelsea last week, should have put it out but stuck it to the edge of the area and someone buried it. It's a really fundamental issue for defenders, if in doubt hoof it out - and never stick the ball across your own box, ever. Downing did it Thursday and was lucky. Skrtel did it against Citeh and got caught. It's just so stupid.
 
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