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Is Gini turning into Lucas?

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rurikbird

rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member
The discussion in the other thread with quotes about Lucas's playing style in Brazil made me think, is it possible that once a player starts to focus on the defensive side of their game more, this can lead to them losing almost all attacking skills and instincts they previously had? Lucas was an example of that; even if his attacking prowess in Brazil was just a bit exaggerated, it's a fact that he did attack and score a lot more before coming here. We see this with Henderson as well, trying to rid his game of any risk in the name of efficiency in build-up, but as a result losing that bit of drive and swagger that was a feature of his game earlier, like a bad-boy rock guitarist trying play Mozart.

Gini seems like the most extreme case though. How does an attacking midfielder who scored 81 (!) goals in Holland and who used to score hat-tricks even for the struggling Newcastle become so risk-averse that he has the lowest % of forward passes even in our not the most creative midfield? This season with more than half of the games played, he has 1 goal and 2 assists in all competitions – stats that would almost not be out of place for Lucas. Most worryingly, whenever he gets into the attacking third nowadays, he looks a bit lost – has anyone else noticed this? Makes wrong decisions, takes too much time on the ball, all in all he looks positively rusty when attacking, as if these skills are beginning to atrophy as he makes less and less regular use of them.

We are so used to Klopp improving players that we even have a term for it - “Klopp effect.” However, in Gini and Hendo’s cases there is perhaps a case for a “negative Klopp effect” - a player being asked to sacrifice their attacking game because they happen to be the most tactically disciplined of the bunch, so they have to protect the less tactically disciplined ones. Notice how Can, who is by the way a far better tackler than Hendo and Gini (but less disciplined, maybe for his own good), has the license to roam forward in many games whereas the midfielder with almost 100 goals in senior football usually has to sit deep and protect. Maybe Gini has to take some responsibility for being too malleable rather than forcing the manager and the team to adapt to HIS style of play, as great players do. But whatever it is, it feels to me like a bit of a waste of talent, since midfielders who score double-digit goals consistently are such a rare and prescious commodity and here we have one in the prime of his career seeming to evolve into a mediocre DM.

Does anyone have more examples of players gradually losing attacking skills over time, in the prime of their career, without injuries and purely based on coaching/change of position?
 
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rurikbird said:
The discussion in the other thread with quotes about Lucas's playing style in Brazil made me think, is it possible that once a player starts to focus on the defensive side of their game more, they can lose all attacking skill and instincts they previously had? Obviously Lucas was an example of that; even if his attacking prowess in Brazil was just a bit exaggerated, it's a fact that he did attack and score a lot more before coming here. We see this with Henderson as well, trying to rid his game of any risk in the name of efficiency in build-up, but as a result losing that bit of drive and unpredictability that was a feature of his game earlier.

Gini seems like the most extreme case though. How does an attacking midfielder who scored 81 (!) goals in Holland and who used to score hat-tricks even for the struggling Newcastle become so risk-averse that he has the lowest % of forward passes even in our not the most creative midfield? This season with more than half of the games played, he has 1 goal and 2 assists in all competitions – stats that would almost not be out of place for Lucas. Most worryingly, whenever Gini gets into the attacking third nowadays, he looks a bit lost – has anyone else noticed this? Makes wrong decisions, takes too much time on the ball, all in all he looks positively rusty when attacking, as if these skills are beginning to atrophy as he makes less and less regular use of them.

We are so used to Klopp improving players that we even have a term for it - “Klopp effect.” However, in Gini and Hendo’s cases there is perhaps a case for a “negative Klopp effect” - a player being asked to sacrifice their attacking qualities because they happen to be the most tactically disciplined of the bunch, so they have to protect the less tactically disciplined ones. Notice how Can, who is by the way a far better tackler than Hendo and Gini (but less disciplined, maybe for his own good), has the license to roam forward in many games whereas the midfielder with almost 100 goals in senior football usually has to sit deep and protect. Maybe Gini has to take some responsibility for being too malleable rather than forcing the manager and the team to adapt to HIS style of play, as great players do. But whatever it is, it feels to me like a bit of a waste of talent, since midfielders who score double-digit goals consistently are such a rare and prescious commodity.

Does anyone have more examples of players gradually losing attacking skills over time, in the prime of their career, without injuries and purely based on coaching/change of position? Has to be someone who had displayed considerable attacking talent over time, such as scoring 81 goals from midfield.
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Great post, and I completely agree. I can't understand who this player even was.

( But 1 goal and 2 assists would be massively beyond expectations for Lucas. That wasn't far off his career record here.)
 
Portly said:
I am a bit cautious about criticising Wijnaldum, because he is the kind of un-flashy player who may be doing a lot without you noticing.
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Portly - that's the issue - people really don't realize the value he provides to the team because of his role. He scored some good goals for us last season - he keeps the midfield ticking as they say. That is why Klopp bought him - very good in tight spaces. He is not turning into Lucas.
 
I think the point I was trying to make is less about Gini as a player and more about Klopp’s coaching and tactics, because Hendo is kind of in the same boat.
 
doctor_mac said:
Great post, and I completely agree. I can't understand who this player even was.

( But 1 goal and 2 assists would be massively beyond expectations for Lucas. That wasn't far off his career record here.)
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Guess what, the mighty Lucas has 1 goal and 5 (!) assists in all competitions this season. Blowing Gini’s stats out of the water.
 
Portly said:
I am a bit cautious about criticising Wijnaldum, because he is the kind of un-flashy player who may be doing a lot without you noticing.
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This reminds me of a story about a band I like, whose name shall remain undisclosed for fear of subsequent prejudice. Their youngest member joined when the rest of the band were quite established. This guy figured the way to stay in the band was to be as unobtrusive as possible, so started by playing the keyboards really, really quietly. The rest of the band thought he was great and used to say stuff like 'the keyboards are great, you can't really hear them, but if you took them away you'd really notice'.

What none of them realised was the new keyboard player had turned the volume down so low he'd actually turned the keyboard off.

That's what I think of when I think of Gini. Someone who is trying to avoid any sort of scrutiny of himself that he avoids doing anything.
 
Dreambeliever said:
Well it's also a lot harder to score here than in Holland.

Kuyt was prolific in Holland
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He scored 11 league goals for Newcastle, which isn't too shabby.

It's fair to say that he's playing a different role, with far more positional discipline, so a drop in how many goals he's scored and created is understandable when he's playing a far less attacking role.

What hasn't changed since Newcastle is his horrible dips in form, and tendency to fucking disappear (especially in away games), So at least he's consistently inconsistent.
I wrote this about him ages ago, and Rob Lee agreed:

"He was pilloried by Newcastle fans for regularly going missing in games and was dubbed "The Invisible Man" by a few."

Rob Lee: "Georginio Wijnaldum baffles me. As a former midfielder player, I just cannot understand how he can look so poor at times.
He seemed to play unbelievably well at St James’ Park before Christmas, but his form away from home has been terrible at times.

The Dutchman either seems to play really well, or you just don’t see him".

Not much has changed, although at Newcastle Benitez did think he was more of an attacking player than a defensive one.

Wherever he plays, he's an inconsistent shithouse, and THAT is the problem.
 
He's a bit different to Lucas, but similarly they are both capable of doing a stellar job in a big game, only to then be utterly ineffectual in the lesser games. Which makes the whole idea of Modo poking fun at Henderson and Gerrard utterly laughable, because Lucas would only perform for specific games and would then be out of his depth against the dregs of the league.

Gini is alot more agile though, which is why the midfield worked so well without Can last year, because Gini and Lallana could work it out of type spots deep in midfield, to turn defense into attack. Henderson and Lallana's injuries, with the former's subsequent nosedive in form has put paid to that, but it worked and it might give us an idea of what Klopp's overall vision for the midfield might be. People scoffed when he turned Lallana and Gini into hardworking midfielders, but it worked brilliantly - AOC is playing a similar role now.

Of course we still need that steel in midfield, regardless.
 
Gini moves to a big a club and then doesn’t perform. There are plenty of players who have been unable to step it up consistently when moving to a better club.

Gini can get away with being invisible for 60% of games playing for Newcastle.
 
It's a valid point you make in regard to the noticeable decline we've seen in his ability in the attacking areas.

Like you said, hesitancy, poor decision making, a lack of confidence and composure.
We've known for a while his tendency to go missing in away games, but this is a new trait we're seeing, home & away.

As far as it being down to his new deeper role, and him being rusty when he finds himself in the final third. I think that's being overly generous to him.

If you look at other players who've started as attacking players, before adapting to deeper roles, the top players still retained those attacking instincts and ability when needed.

I think we only need to look at Milner as an example of a player who has played predominantly most of his career in attacking positions, but at Liverpool he's played left back/Centre midfield, but his Goals /Assists record has been very respectable.

Leaves me with the unfortunate conclusion that it comes down to a lack of character, an accusation that has been aimed at Gini in the past, with the "Invisible Man" & "Shithouse" comments.
 
Woland said:
He's fucking shite
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You're missing the point. If we think up a convoluted explanation for why he is playing shite, drawing upon such things as Lucas, then when we're finished we can take comfort from the fact that according to our wonderful new insight, so long as x y and z happen, he'll go from shite to world class again, and we'll win the league, and all will be right with the world.

In your world, he's shite because he's shite, will always be shite, and we might as well cry and take drugs, for there is no hope. Given that x y and z will never happen in any event, then what's the harm in using them for a little comfort in these dark times?
 
I like Wijnaldum. He has some great attributes but oddly doesn't use them enough. I didn't want to sign him originally but warmed to him.

Here is a few posts I made about him back in 2016:

He's good isn't he? I expected more goals and assists by now but hopefully they'll come. He seems to be playing within himself at times, especially early on in the season but he's really showing his class on the ball at times lately. He's just a good player. Simple as that.

He probably had more freedom in that Newcastle side to make forward runs. He is taking up different positions for us.

I was bit surprised with the figure we paid for him too but I presumed it was because we wanted to upgrade Allen with a more physical, athletic player who has an eye for goal. Sadly the goals haven't come yet but I'll give him a pass for his all round game.

That was from December 2016. Two years on and he's still about the same. A very talented player but seems to playing within himself. In certain passages of play he can seems as strong as an ox, he can perform moments of sheer brilliance with his talented foot work, he can be seen maundering forward with the ball, etc. It's also odd that he is so inconsistent and safe when he has a history of being a bit of a flare player in his early career. At Newcastle he was always viewed as a dangerous attacking player. He has 45 caps for his country and 8 goals. Perhaps he has matured into a different player or is he carrying out strict instructions from Klopp? I've no idea to be honest. He is clearly capable of more. It's also odd that he plays well in the so called bigger games. Usually a cowardly player would go missing in the big games (for example, Downing at Old Trafford) but Wijnaldum looks comfortable and confident in these games.

He'll stay in the team, Klopp likes him and he is a good player but it's frustrating to watch him keeping it neat and tidy when he's capable of much more. Perhaps Keita's arrival will shuffle the pack in midfield and we'll see a different dynamic in there.
 
These days he shits all over himself when he gets anywhere near the box.

He was very good at shielding the ball when he just arrived and is one of those who could actually keep possession for more than 5 seconds. Now he just doesn't look comfortable or confident at all. It's always to someone else without actually taking any risk or responsibility to win us the game.
 
What is he meant to provide to the team? What is he meant to be good at? He doesn't create or score goals, he doesn't pick out any marvellous passes, and he's not exactly the greatest tackler either. I'm not saying he's shit, I'm just not sure what he's actually meant to be doing out there.
 
He's magnificent in games wehere we have to press against top opposition. His energy, drive, workrate, ability to nick possession, and usually excellent touch and shielding of the ball make him pretty much the perfect midfielder for those types of games. He'll be very good for us in the later stages of the CL - if we get there.

He's piss-poor against opposition that sit deep and require some creativity and ingenuity. He looks like he's waiting to just start running somewhere the whole time.

In an ideal world, you'd bench him for all games against bottom half of the table sides - but we have no midfield alternatives to replace him currently, unless you count the fucking limp Milner. Which I don't.

So we're stuck with him until Keita comes really.
 
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