Gerrard vs Kaka
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Toughie. I'd say Gerrard on the basis that he adds more than just being an AM even when he is an AM.
On top form I would would go with Gerrard.
20+ goals a season for the last 2/3 seasons swings it for me.
20+ goals a season for the last 2/3 seasons swings it for me.
Can I have 'em both please?
S
Squiggles
Guest
I think Kaka is the better dribbler and probably has a higher degree of technical ability, but Gerrard's much more explosive, productive and athletic.
It's hard to be neutral given everything Gerrard's done for us, but I still think I'd vote for him.
It's hard to be neutral given everything Gerrard's done for us, but I still think I'd vote for him.
On form, Gerrard easily for me. Hope he hits form soon or even a shot on goal.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37979.msg1016085#msg1016085 date=1261057617]
It's hard to be neutral given everything Gerrard's done for us, but I still think I'd vote for him.
[/quote]
My impression is that Kaka has a bigger reputation and as such people would tend to vote for him - which is kinda why I asked because thinking about it, I'd pick Gerrard no question. In the last couple years he's played in that position and (without looking at the stats, I'd say) scored and assisted more than Kaka ever has.
It's hard to be neutral given everything Gerrard's done for us, but I still think I'd vote for him.
[/quote]
My impression is that Kaka has a bigger reputation and as such people would tend to vote for him - which is kinda why I asked because thinking about it, I'd pick Gerrard no question. In the last couple years he's played in that position and (without looking at the stats, I'd say) scored and assisted more than Kaka ever has.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37979.msg1016126#msg1016126 date=1261063816]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37979.msg1016085#msg1016085 date=1261057617]
It's hard to be neutral given everything Gerrard's done for us, but I still think I'd vote for him.
[/quote]
My impression is that Kaka has a bigger reputation and as such people would tend to vote for him - which is kinda why I asked because thinking about it, I'd pick Gerrard no question. In the last couple years he's played in that position and (without looking at the stats, I'd say) scored and assisted more than Kaka ever has.
[/quote]
I'd agree with all of that, pretty much.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=37979.msg1016085#msg1016085 date=1261057617]
It's hard to be neutral given everything Gerrard's done for us, but I still think I'd vote for him.
[/quote]
My impression is that Kaka has a bigger reputation and as such people would tend to vote for him - which is kinda why I asked because thinking about it, I'd pick Gerrard no question. In the last couple years he's played in that position and (without looking at the stats, I'd say) scored and assisted more than Kaka ever has.
[/quote]
I'd agree with all of that, pretty much.
I'll go against the grain here, and say Kaka. He knows how to play the role of an AM better.
As great an all rounder as he is, I personally don't think Stevie is the *absolute* best in the world in any given position. I just think he's a world class player who can play various positions to a world class standard. But there are a few less versatile players out there who can (or have) played a position equal or better than Stevie, whether it'd be RW, LW, AM, DM, CM (controversial) or SS (speaking in FM-terms).
As great an all rounder as he is, I personally don't think Stevie is the *absolute* best in the world in any given position. I just think he's a world class player who can play various positions to a world class standard. But there are a few less versatile players out there who can (or have) played a position equal or better than Stevie, whether it'd be RW, LW, AM, DM, CM (controversial) or SS (speaking in FM-terms).
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37979.msg1016142#msg1016142 date=1261064682]
I'll go against the grain here, and say Kaka. He knows how to play the role of an AM better.
As great an all rounder as he is, I personally don't think Stevie is the *absolute* best in the world in any given position. I just think he's a world class player who can play various positions to a world class standard. But there are a few less versatile players out there who can (or have) played a position equal or better than Stevie, whether it'd be RW, LW, AM, DM, CM (controversial) or SS (speaking in FM-terms).
[/quote]
True but the likes of Gerrard, there has never been a player like that. World class in both offensive and defensive positions, he's a phenomenon. No way is Kaka better than Gerrard as a footballer or attacking midfielder. Even Kaka would admit that.
I'll go against the grain here, and say Kaka. He knows how to play the role of an AM better.
As great an all rounder as he is, I personally don't think Stevie is the *absolute* best in the world in any given position. I just think he's a world class player who can play various positions to a world class standard. But there are a few less versatile players out there who can (or have) played a position equal or better than Stevie, whether it'd be RW, LW, AM, DM, CM (controversial) or SS (speaking in FM-terms).
[/quote]
True but the likes of Gerrard, there has never been a player like that. World class in both offensive and defensive positions, he's a phenomenon. No way is Kaka better than Gerrard as a footballer or attacking midfielder. Even Kaka would admit that.
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=37979.msg1016145#msg1016145 date=1261064993]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37979.msg1016142#msg1016142 date=1261064682]
I'll go against the grain here, and say Kaka. He knows how to play the role of an AM better.
As great an all rounder as he is, I personally don't think Stevie is the *absolute* best in the world in any given position. I just think he's a world class player who can play various positions to a world class standard. But there are a few less versatile players out there who can (or have) played a position equal or better than Stevie, whether it'd be RW, LW, AM, DM, CM (controversial) or SS (speaking in FM-terms).
[/quote]
True but the likes of Gerrard, there has never been a player like that. World class in both offensive and defensive positions, he's a phenomenon. No way is Kaka better than Gerrard as a footballer or attacking midfielder. Even Kaka would admit that.
[/quote]
Are we talking a prime Gerrard and prime Kaka then? Because Stevie's pushing 30 now and slowing down somewhat (imo). If we are talking prime Gerrard (05), then yeah i'd agree.
If we are talking about now, then no, I don't think he's a better attacking midfielder than a Kaka or Fabregas or Iniesta. In the Premiership, he'd perform better than them, but in any other top league (with the slower tempo) i'm not so sure.
I don't know, perhaps it's my own reverse-bias in that I haven't seen Stevie play for any other side but Liverpool and England.. and at Liverpool, he's been allowed to play without discipline to any specific position for a sustained period to call it his own.. and with England, (in the past) he's been completely shackled by too much of it (and has been surrounded by failure).
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37979.msg1016142#msg1016142 date=1261064682]
I'll go against the grain here, and say Kaka. He knows how to play the role of an AM better.
As great an all rounder as he is, I personally don't think Stevie is the *absolute* best in the world in any given position. I just think he's a world class player who can play various positions to a world class standard. But there are a few less versatile players out there who can (or have) played a position equal or better than Stevie, whether it'd be RW, LW, AM, DM, CM (controversial) or SS (speaking in FM-terms).
[/quote]
True but the likes of Gerrard, there has never been a player like that. World class in both offensive and defensive positions, he's a phenomenon. No way is Kaka better than Gerrard as a footballer or attacking midfielder. Even Kaka would admit that.
[/quote]
Are we talking a prime Gerrard and prime Kaka then? Because Stevie's pushing 30 now and slowing down somewhat (imo). If we are talking prime Gerrard (05), then yeah i'd agree.
If we are talking about now, then no, I don't think he's a better attacking midfielder than a Kaka or Fabregas or Iniesta. In the Premiership, he'd perform better than them, but in any other top league (with the slower tempo) i'm not so sure.
I don't know, perhaps it's my own reverse-bias in that I haven't seen Stevie play for any other side but Liverpool and England.. and at Liverpool, he's been allowed to play without discipline to any specific position for a sustained period to call it his own.. and with England, (in the past) he's been completely shackled by too much of it (and has been surrounded by failure).
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37979.msg1016148#msg1016148 date=1261065716]
Are we talking a prime Gerrard and prime Kaka then? Because Stevie's pushing 30 now and slowing down somewhat (imo). If we are talking prime Gerrard (05), then yeah i'd agree.
If we are talking about now, then no, I don't think he's a better attacking midfielder than a Kaka or Fabregas or Iniesta. In the Premiership, he'd perform better than them, but in any other top league (with the slower tempo) i'm not so sure.
I don't know, perhaps it's my own reverse-bias in that I haven't seen Stevie play for any other side but Liverpool and England.. and at Liverpool, he's been allowed to play without discipline to any specific position for a sustained period to call it his own.. and with England, (in the past) he's been completely shackled by too much of it (and has been surrounded by failure).
[/quote]
Would you say Gerrard was in his prime in '05? The other season he near enough got 20 goals / 20 assists.
I don't think Fabregas or Iniesta are really comparable either. Kaka, much like Gerrard, is very much a dynamic player and have both (although with Gerrard it's a relatively new thing) play regularly between the lines.
As for your second point, Kaka shined in the free role behind the strikers at Milan (although didn't quite look as good when not in that position) and has so far made a fairly tentative start to his Real career.
Are we talking a prime Gerrard and prime Kaka then? Because Stevie's pushing 30 now and slowing down somewhat (imo). If we are talking prime Gerrard (05), then yeah i'd agree.
If we are talking about now, then no, I don't think he's a better attacking midfielder than a Kaka or Fabregas or Iniesta. In the Premiership, he'd perform better than them, but in any other top league (with the slower tempo) i'm not so sure.
I don't know, perhaps it's my own reverse-bias in that I haven't seen Stevie play for any other side but Liverpool and England.. and at Liverpool, he's been allowed to play without discipline to any specific position for a sustained period to call it his own.. and with England, (in the past) he's been completely shackled by too much of it (and has been surrounded by failure).
[/quote]
Would you say Gerrard was in his prime in '05? The other season he near enough got 20 goals / 20 assists.
I don't think Fabregas or Iniesta are really comparable either. Kaka, much like Gerrard, is very much a dynamic player and have both (although with Gerrard it's a relatively new thing) play regularly between the lines.
As for your second point, Kaka shined in the free role behind the strikers at Milan (although didn't quite look as good when not in that position) and has so far made a fairly tentative start to his Real career.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37979.msg1016191#msg1016191 date=1261070741]
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37979.msg1016148#msg1016148 date=1261065716]
Are we talking a prime Gerrard and prime Kaka then? Because Stevie's pushing 30 now and slowing down somewhat (imo). If we are talking prime Gerrard (05), then yeah i'd agree.
If we are talking about now, then no, I don't think he's a better attacking midfielder than a Kaka or Fabregas or Iniesta. In the Premiership, he'd perform better than them, but in any other top league (with the slower tempo) i'm not so sure.
I don't know, perhaps it's my own reverse-bias in that I haven't seen Stevie play for any other side but Liverpool and England.. and at Liverpool, he's been allowed to play without discipline to any specific position for a sustained period to call it his own.. and with England, (in the past) he's been completely shackled by too much of it (and has been surrounded by failure).
[/quote]
Would you say Gerrard was in his prime in '05? The other season he near enough got 20 goals / 20 assists.
I don't think Fabregas or Iniesta are really comparable either. Kaka, much like Gerrard, is very much a dynamic player and have both (although with Gerrard it's a relatively new thing) play regularly between the lines.
As for your second point, Kaka shined in the free role behind the strikers at Milan (although didn't quite look as good when not in that position) and has so far made a fairly tentative start to his Real career.
[/quote]
Physically, yeah, I think he was in his prime then. Very much box-to-box. I remember one game that year against Southampton, where he made a 60 yard gallop forward, played the forward, Baros or whoever it was lost it.. Southampton broke.. and he made an 60 yard gallop back to make a Mascher-type crunch tackle.. got up and played a 40 yard pinpoint pass forward again. I don't think he's got the legs to that now.
Even so, when it comes to playing "in between the lines" and behind striker(s) I just prefer Kaka I guess. As you said, he shined there for Milan, but I don't really think he been allowed to play the same position at Madrid nor given the same license to play, as they've obviously got Ronaldo to consider when setting up tactically.
My main preference with Kaka over Stevie behind striker(s) is his better discipline and better intelligence of the AM role. That's *his* position and I think he's a better fit tactically for a team. Stevie can sometimes come very deep, go wide when not needed and can leave Nando very isolated up front if he's not getting the ball as much as he wants it. Whilst that may be necessary at Liverpool (especially recently, with the likes of Lucas 'feeding' him the ball). I'm not so sure if that's always a good thing for a team (generally). Perhaps in a better team, Stevie wouldn't have to do it so much and my point would be moot, but I can only go on what i've seen (both for Liverpool and England).
Also, Stevie always seem to like to play the game at a very high tempo, which is a good thing in England but probably not so much in other leagues, where sometimes (as a playmaker) you need to slow games down and put your foot on the ball (something I've never really seen Stevie do, which again, could be due to our style as opposed him specifically).
Finally, I just think Kaka has a bit more 'flair' about him than Stevie. Whilst Stevie may have better long range passing, I think Kaka's got better technique in tight spaces and between the lines. He can also pick a through ball slightly better (and faster). Of course, that's not to say Stevie hasn't got flair. I just think Kaka, being Brazilian, has bit more magic/the unexpected about him.
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37979.msg1016148#msg1016148 date=1261065716]
Are we talking a prime Gerrard and prime Kaka then? Because Stevie's pushing 30 now and slowing down somewhat (imo). If we are talking prime Gerrard (05), then yeah i'd agree.
If we are talking about now, then no, I don't think he's a better attacking midfielder than a Kaka or Fabregas or Iniesta. In the Premiership, he'd perform better than them, but in any other top league (with the slower tempo) i'm not so sure.
I don't know, perhaps it's my own reverse-bias in that I haven't seen Stevie play for any other side but Liverpool and England.. and at Liverpool, he's been allowed to play without discipline to any specific position for a sustained period to call it his own.. and with England, (in the past) he's been completely shackled by too much of it (and has been surrounded by failure).
[/quote]
Would you say Gerrard was in his prime in '05? The other season he near enough got 20 goals / 20 assists.
I don't think Fabregas or Iniesta are really comparable either. Kaka, much like Gerrard, is very much a dynamic player and have both (although with Gerrard it's a relatively new thing) play regularly between the lines.
As for your second point, Kaka shined in the free role behind the strikers at Milan (although didn't quite look as good when not in that position) and has so far made a fairly tentative start to his Real career.
[/quote]
Physically, yeah, I think he was in his prime then. Very much box-to-box. I remember one game that year against Southampton, where he made a 60 yard gallop forward, played the forward, Baros or whoever it was lost it.. Southampton broke.. and he made an 60 yard gallop back to make a Mascher-type crunch tackle.. got up and played a 40 yard pinpoint pass forward again. I don't think he's got the legs to that now.
Even so, when it comes to playing "in between the lines" and behind striker(s) I just prefer Kaka I guess. As you said, he shined there for Milan, but I don't really think he been allowed to play the same position at Madrid nor given the same license to play, as they've obviously got Ronaldo to consider when setting up tactically.
My main preference with Kaka over Stevie behind striker(s) is his better discipline and better intelligence of the AM role. That's *his* position and I think he's a better fit tactically for a team. Stevie can sometimes come very deep, go wide when not needed and can leave Nando very isolated up front if he's not getting the ball as much as he wants it. Whilst that may be necessary at Liverpool (especially recently, with the likes of Lucas 'feeding' him the ball). I'm not so sure if that's always a good thing for a team (generally). Perhaps in a better team, Stevie wouldn't have to do it so much and my point would be moot, but I can only go on what i've seen (both for Liverpool and England).
Also, Stevie always seem to like to play the game at a very high tempo, which is a good thing in England but probably not so much in other leagues, where sometimes (as a playmaker) you need to slow games down and put your foot on the ball (something I've never really seen Stevie do, which again, could be due to our style as opposed him specifically).
Finally, I just think Kaka has a bit more 'flair' about him than Stevie. Whilst Stevie may have better long range passing, I think Kaka's got better technique in tight spaces and between the lines. He can also pick a through ball slightly better (and faster). Of course, that's not to say Stevie hasn't got flair. I just think Kaka, being Brazilian, has bit more magic/the unexpected about him.
I'll go against the grain a little here as well and say Kaka.
I don't think I've seen a player rip us apart as much as Kaka did in Istanbul. He's done it to other teams as well from that position. Not to say Gerrard hasn't done the same - we all know he has. Not sure that any player in the world can match him for dynamism or explosive power. However, as good as they might be I don't really think Kaka has played behind a striker in such good form and so well suited to a league as Gerrard does with Torres.
I'm not sure that Stevie would have managed the same performances if it weren't for the quality of Torres in front of him. I'd still pick Gerrard in any team I could name but Kaka at his best is just mesmerising and makes lesser players look world beaters.
I don't think I've seen a player rip us apart as much as Kaka did in Istanbul. He's done it to other teams as well from that position. Not to say Gerrard hasn't done the same - we all know he has. Not sure that any player in the world can match him for dynamism or explosive power. However, as good as they might be I don't really think Kaka has played behind a striker in such good form and so well suited to a league as Gerrard does with Torres.
I'm not sure that Stevie would have managed the same performances if it weren't for the quality of Torres in front of him. I'd still pick Gerrard in any team I could name but Kaka at his best is just mesmerising and makes lesser players look world beaters.
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37979.msg1016571#msg1016571 date=1261120730]
I'll go against the grain a little here as well and say Kaka.
I don't think I've seen a player rip us apart as much as Kaka did in Istanbul. He's done it to other teams as well from that position. Not to say Gerrard hasn't done the same - we all know he has. Not sure that any player in the world can match him for dynamism or explosive power. However, as good as they might be I don't really think Kaka has played behind a striker in such good form and so well suited to a league as Gerrard does with Torres.
I'm not sure that Stevie would have managed the same performances if it weren't for the quality of Torres in front of him. I'd still pick Gerrard in any team I could name but Kaka at his best is just mesmerising and makes lesser players look world beaters.
[/quote]
Sheva for Milan?
I'll go against the grain a little here as well and say Kaka.
I don't think I've seen a player rip us apart as much as Kaka did in Istanbul. He's done it to other teams as well from that position. Not to say Gerrard hasn't done the same - we all know he has. Not sure that any player in the world can match him for dynamism or explosive power. However, as good as they might be I don't really think Kaka has played behind a striker in such good form and so well suited to a league as Gerrard does with Torres.
I'm not sure that Stevie would have managed the same performances if it weren't for the quality of Torres in front of him. I'd still pick Gerrard in any team I could name but Kaka at his best is just mesmerising and makes lesser players look world beaters.
[/quote]
Sheva for Milan?
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37979.msg1016620#msg1016620 date=1261129362]
Who can blame him though?
So Wizardry, Kaka was playing behind two excellent strikers, protected by two defensive midfielders + Seedorf.
[/quote]
Actually, I'd forgotten about Sheva which is kinda hard to do.
Having said that I don't hold Crespo to be in the same league as Torres and Sheva nor do I think he had anywhere near the impact of the two mentioned.
I was also thinking of Kaka when they smashed the mancs (amongst others) on their way to beating us in the final. Kaka was utterly unstoppable in that run and the strikers, though competent, were not comparable to Torres - or even Fowler and Owen for that matter.
Who can blame him though?
So Wizardry, Kaka was playing behind two excellent strikers, protected by two defensive midfielders + Seedorf.
[/quote]
Actually, I'd forgotten about Sheva which is kinda hard to do.
Having said that I don't hold Crespo to be in the same league as Torres and Sheva nor do I think he had anywhere near the impact of the two mentioned.
I was also thinking of Kaka when they smashed the mancs (amongst others) on their way to beating us in the final. Kaka was utterly unstoppable in that run and the strikers, though competent, were not comparable to Torres - or even Fowler and Owen for that matter.
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37979.msg1016055#msg1016055 date=1261054167]
When it comes to that AM position beind the striker(s), who is better (assume top form for both)?
[/quote]
Clearly Kaka. Kaka could look good there with any striker ahead of him, Gerrard wasn't much in the position until Torres arrived.
When it comes to that AM position beind the striker(s), who is better (assume top form for both)?
[/quote]
Clearly Kaka. Kaka could look good there with any striker ahead of him, Gerrard wasn't much in the position until Torres arrived.
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37979.msg1016571#msg1016571 date=1261120730]
However, as good as they might be I don't really think Kaka has played behind a striker in such good form and so well suited to a league as Gerrard does with Torres.
I'm not sure that Stevie would have managed the same performances if it weren't for the quality of Torres in front of him. I'd still pick Gerrard in any team I could name but Kaka at his best is just mesmerising and makes lesser players look world beaters.
[/quote]
Yup
However, as good as they might be I don't really think Kaka has played behind a striker in such good form and so well suited to a league as Gerrard does with Torres.
I'm not sure that Stevie would have managed the same performances if it weren't for the quality of Torres in front of him. I'd still pick Gerrard in any team I could name but Kaka at his best is just mesmerising and makes lesser players look world beaters.
[/quote]
Yup
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=37979.msg1020023#msg1020023 date=1261555891]
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37979.msg1016571#msg1016571 date=1261120730]
However, as good as they might be I don't really think Kaka has played behind a striker in such good form and so well suited to a league as Gerrard does with Torres.
[/quote]
Yup
[/quote]
You also forgot Sheva eh? He was the most dominating and feared striker in world football for a good few years ...
[quote author=Wizardry link=topic=37979.msg1016571#msg1016571 date=1261120730]
However, as good as they might be I don't really think Kaka has played behind a striker in such good form and so well suited to a league as Gerrard does with Torres.
[/quote]
Yup
[/quote]
You also forgot Sheva eh? He was the most dominating and feared striker in world football for a good few years ...
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=37979.msg1020022#msg1020022 date=1261555809]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37979.msg1016055#msg1016055 date=1261054167]
When it comes to that AM position beind the striker(s), who is better (assume top form for both)?
[/quote]
Clearly Kaka. Kaka could look good there with any striker ahead of him, Gerrard wasn't much in the position until Torres arrived.
[/quote]
Errr, so your argument is that Kaka has played in the AM position in more setups than Gerrard who has only partnered Torres?
What does that demonstrate other than circumstances?
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37979.msg1016055#msg1016055 date=1261054167]
When it comes to that AM position beind the striker(s), who is better (assume top form for both)?
[/quote]
Clearly Kaka. Kaka could look good there with any striker ahead of him, Gerrard wasn't much in the position until Torres arrived.
[/quote]
Errr, so your argument is that Kaka has played in the AM position in more setups than Gerrard who has only partnered Torres?
What does that demonstrate other than circumstances?
We've seen Gerrard play there behind more players than just Torres. He was asked to do it quite a number of times before Torres even appeared. I'm sure we've seen him look mediocre there behind Crouch, Morientes, Cisse, Kuyt and also Keane when Torres was injured.
We've also seen him play for England there and mostly look not much use.
Wheras Kaka has played there his whole career and looked world class the whole time, including for Brazil.
We've also seen him play for England there and mostly look not much use.
Wheras Kaka has played there his whole career and looked world class the whole time, including for Brazil.
Steven Gerrard is a better player than Kaka, regardless of where he plays, or who he's played with.
Gerrard is the best midfielder in the world.
Gerrard is the best midfielder in the world.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=37979.msg1020172#msg1020172 date=1261577472]
We've seen Gerrard play there behind more players than just Torres. He was asked to do it quite a number of times before Torres even appeared. I'm sure we've seen him look mediocre there behind Crouch, Morientes, Cisse, Kuyt and also Keane when Torres was injured.
We've also seen him play for England there and mostly look not much use.
Wheras Kaka has played there his whole career and looked world class the whole time, including for Brazil.
[/quote]
How many times did Stevie play behind the likes of Cisse and Morientes?
Either way, I'd like to see Kaka play in precision through balls to the likes of Kuyt and see how far it gets him.
We've seen Gerrard play there behind more players than just Torres. He was asked to do it quite a number of times before Torres even appeared. I'm sure we've seen him look mediocre there behind Crouch, Morientes, Cisse, Kuyt and also Keane when Torres was injured.
We've also seen him play for England there and mostly look not much use.
Wheras Kaka has played there his whole career and looked world class the whole time, including for Brazil.
[/quote]
How many times did Stevie play behind the likes of Cisse and Morientes?
Either way, I'd like to see Kaka play in precision through balls to the likes of Kuyt and see how far it gets him.
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