• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Dive or Face Injury ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Frogfish

Gone to Redcafe
Member
FOR those who doubt the legitimacy of Liverpool’s controversial penalty on Monday night, answer me this. Had David Ngog not tumbled – okay, dived – over the late tackle of Birmingham midfielder Lee Carsley, what would have happened?

There are two likely outcomes, the first being that Ngog would have been scythed down resulting in a clear penalty – and a probably injury.

Remember this is a player so reckless in the challenge that he once put Everton team-mate Tim Cahill out of commission for eight weeks with a mistimed lunge.

Alternatively, the young French striker could have hurdled Carsley’s leg, which would have slowed his march on goal and allowed Birmingham defenders to recover. No penalty, despite the infringement. Honest, perhaps, but hardly fair.

Instead, Ngog took the only option any top-level striker would have in his position. He dived, won a spot kick and avoided spending the next three months on the treatment table.

Steven Gerrard was lambasted for a similar incident in a 1-1 draw with Sheffield United on the opening day of the 2006/07 Premier League season.

The Reds skipper won a penalty, which Robbie Fowler converted, after stumbling as he tried to skip over the dangerous challenge of Blades’ Chris Morgan.

Referee Rob Styles defended the award by insisting that, under the laws of the game, it was irrelevant that there had been no contact.

He added that the rules state a penalty can be awarded if a player is disadvantaged by taking evasive action to avoid a tackle in the box.

Football folk are simple folk, though – they only see things in black and white.

Ultimately, if a player makes a challenge as poor in the penalty area as the ones perpetrated by men who probably don’t belong at this level, like Carsley or Morgan, then they deserve to concede a spot kick.

Ngog’s theatrical fall has prompted renewed campaigns to “ban the divers†and “beat the cheatsâ€.

But where are calls to clamp down on the defenders kicking lumps out of the strikers and flair players who light up the Premier League and are afforded scant protection?

What’s the greater menace in football – divers or the yard dogs who endanger the careers of their fellow professionals?

Unfortunately in Britain many pundits believe it to be the former.

There’s always a great deal more fuss, of course, when it’s a foreign player going to ground rather than Englishmen like Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney.

It’s not that I condone cheating, but it is not cheating for a player to highlight foul play. There’s a stark difference between what Ngog did and, say, what the worst offenders of the English top flight Didier Drogba and El Hadji Diouf get up to each weekend – players who are solely out to deceive referees.

The likes of Fernando Torres and formerly Cristiano Ronaldo spend 90 minutes being kicked, pulled and elbowed by stoppers incapable of containing their blazing talents by legal means.

They rarely find solace from the match officials – unless they go down like they’ve been shot. That appears to be the only way to get their attention.

It might be unmanly and unsightly but what is the alternative?

Perhaps if referees clamped down on the thugs you’d find strikers would more willing to stay on their feet.

Forget for a moment the context of this article and instead focus on the premise that the referees in the EPL need to address the inherent issue of poor defenders making dangerous tackles, whether that affects Gerrard or Rooney or any other quality premiership striker. What say you ?
 
"Instead, Ngog took the only option any top-level striker would have in his position. He dived, won a spot kick and avoided spending the next three months on the treatment table."

The fucking state of that.

"the only option" my sweaty ringpiece.
 
Ngog could have jumped to avoid injury but dragged his foot onto Carlsley for the penalty.
End of debate.
 
I'm capable of leaping over things and making some attempt at not falling over. I'm pretty sure if I had trained my whole life, I could enjoy some measure of success at it.

The fact is, if he had done that, it would have been less likely to be a penalty, but it still should have been one.
 
I am impressed with the guys that can diagnose an injury that didnt occure with a certain timeestimate for the rehab period... Fuck me we have got far in 2009!!!
 
I don't like the fact that N'gog dived because I believe that we are much better than that. There's no ifs or buts. We won the penalty and salvaged a point. Doesn't quite even out the beach ball incident but I can deal with it. Sometimes we just have to roll with the punches.

That particular incident could just turn out to be the turning point of our season. If it is, I will be grateful nonetheless.
 
[quote author=RolandG link=topic=37214.msg989542#msg989542 date=1258376547]
I don't like the fact that N'gog dived because I believe that we are much better than that. There's no ifs or buts. We won the penalty and salvaged a point. Doesn't quite even out the beach ball incident but I can deal with it. Sometimes we just have to roll with the punches.

That particular incident could just turn out to be the turning point of our season. If it is, I will be grateful nonetheless.
[/quote]

I really don't think that a point at home to Birmingham could ever be defined as a 'turning point'. It was just a continuation of our poor finishing and rotten luck.
 
From the tribalshite

Liverpool striker David Ngog has broken down in training with France U21.

Ngog was involved in a clash in training yesterday with the French Under-21s and reports this morning claim he has broken his nose.

The young forward is now a doubt to face Sweden tomorrow night.
 
I missed the second half - and the penalty in this game. I don't like the idea of Liverpool players diving. At the same time, I saw a few instances in the first half of Birmingham players diving in, not getting the ball, but knocking our player out of his stride sufficiently for possession to be lost. In my opinion that equates to a foul - an unsuccessful attempt at the ball which causes possession to be lost through evasive action. I was calling out for a free kick in the first half - if the referee was letting these things go, I can (sort of) understand the attempt to add a little extra persuasion.
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=37214.msg989415#msg989415 date=1258353932]
Would you have posted this if it were Ronaldo?
[/quote]

Can't you read ? (seems no-one else can either).
 
[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=37214.msg989687#msg989687 date=1258397369]
I stopped at "and a probably injury".
[/quote]

What I wrote (not the quote) was under that mate.
 
[/quote]

I really don't think that a point at home to Birmingham could ever be defined as a 'turning point'. It was just a continuation of our poor finishing and rotten luck.
[/quote]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for a consensus. A point is better than none in this context. Another home loss despite dominating would have been even more devastating psychologically. I do believe that draw was a disappointment for the players despite our poor form and that speaks volumes of their mentality.

It is a continuation of our poor finishing and rotten luck but the signs are there that we are emerging from our slump.
 
For the benefit of those of you that didn't see the point of the OP (all of you it seems) - this was the question :

Forget for a moment the context of this article and instead focus on the premise that the referees in the EPL need to address the inherent issue of poor defenders making dangerous tackles, whether that affects Gerrard or Rooney or any other quality premiership striker. What say you ?
 
[quote author=rage link=topic=37214.msg990179#msg990179 date=1258446559]
last i looked football wasn't a non contact sport and that tackle was far from dangerous.
[/quote]

Another one bites the dust.
 
[quote author=Mersey86 link=topic=37214.msg989623#msg989623 date=1258387841]
I missed the second half - and the penalty in this game. I don't like the idea of Liverpool players diving. At the same time, I saw a few instances in the first half of Birmingham players diving in, not getting the ball, but knocking our player out of his stride sufficiently for possession to be lost. In my opinion that equates to a foul - an unsuccessful attempt at the ball which causes possession to be lost through evasive action. I was calling out for a free kick in the first half - if the referee was letting these things go, I can (sort of) understand the attempt to add a little extra persuasion.
[/quote]

Totally agree.. I remember a few seasons back when Gerrard was said to have 'dove' against Sheffield United in the first game of the season. Ball is played through, Gerrard is about to burst clean through on goal, the defender (Morgan I think) clearly can't get it, but nonetheless sticks out a leg forcing Gerrard to hurdle it. The ball runs away slightly because Stevie had to jump over it.. there was no contact, but the ref gave a penalty. I remember after the game they were slating the ref and questionning Gerrard's integrity. Never mind the fact he would scored had the dopey defender not provided him with a hurdle to negotiate.

It's one thing, doing "a Pires" and literally kicking the defenders leg and collapsing in a heap (that's cheating).. it's quite another when the defender makes an attempt for the ball, misses, but provides enough of an obstruction to knock a striker off his stride illegally. For me, in those situations, potential for injury or not, the striker is well within his rights to go down (theatrically if necessary to make sure the ref knows he's been obstructed).
 
[quote author=Le Chacal link=topic=37214.msg990344#msg990344 date=1258464081]
N'Gog broke his nose with the France U-21 team on sunday...
[/quote]

Wow, a Face Injury.

*Checks ironymeter*
 
[quote author=ibromurph link=topic=37214.msg990256#msg990256 date=1258456948]
[quote author=Mersey86 link=topic=37214.msg989623#msg989623 date=1258387841]
I missed the second half - and the penalty in this game. I don't like the idea of Liverpool players diving. At the same time, I saw a few instances in the first half of Birmingham players diving in, not getting the ball, but knocking our player out of his stride sufficiently for possession to be lost. In my opinion that equates to a foul - an unsuccessful attempt at the ball which causes possession to be lost through evasive action. I was calling out for a free kick in the first half - if the referee was letting these things go, I can (sort of) understand the attempt to add a little extra persuasion.
[/quote]

Totally agree.. I remember a few seasons back when Gerrard was said to have 'dove' against Sheffield United in the first game of the season. Ball is played through, Gerrard is about to burst clean through on goal, the defender (Morgan I think) clearly can't get it, but nonetheless sticks out a leg forcing Gerrard to hurdle it. The ball runs away slightly because Stevie had to jump over it.. there was no contact, but the ref gave a penalty. I remember after the game they were slating the ref and questionning Gerrard's integrity. Never mind the fact he would scored had the dopey defender not provided him with a hurdle to negotiate.

It's one thing, doing "a Pires" and literally kicking the defenders leg and collapsing in a heap (that's cheating).. it's quite another when the defender makes an attempt for the ball, misses, but provides enough of an obstruction to knock a striker off his stride illegally. For me, in those situations, potential for injury or not, the striker is well within his rights to go down (theatrically if necessary to make sure the ref knows he's been obstructed).
[/quote]

Seconded. Otherwise the defender (a) gets away with it and (b) is encouraged to keep on doing it.
 
For me, the thread subject title seems a little off the mark.

It would imply that in the face of a rough tackle in the penalty area, diving is the only feasible option to avoid injury. This is clearly illogical based on the athleticism required to be a professional footballer.

In addition, diving also implies that the player being "fouled" is deliberately and deceptively embellishing the effects of the encounter - with a view to gain a favorable outcome. This by definition is an act of cheating.

That being said, I fucking love N'Gog for doing it that rascal.
 
The case in point is that what choice does Ngog have facing a tackel like that.

1) If he don't jump, he will be taken out or fall over Carsley's body. Will that be a penalty?

2) If he jumps, and not fall, he may or may not reach the ball to shoot, as he will lose a second or two.

3) If he jumps and falls, like what he did, he become a diver because he lost his footing due to the high speed?

We are indeed deluded, if Ngog did it on purpose.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom