Degen?
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the_khl
Guest
Maybe I'm fooling myself but I actually thought Degen showed promising glimpses in some of his latest outings.
Anyways he won't be missed should he leave and to recoup £2M would be good. That'll about cover his wages so far I reckon.
Anyways he won't be missed should he leave and to recoup £2M would be good. That'll about cover his wages so far I reckon.
T
the_khl
Guest
[quote author=keniget link=topic=38296.msg1027713#msg1027713 date=1262770789]
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38296.msg1027712#msg1027712 date=1262770745]That'll about cover his wages so far I reckon.
[/quote]
Nah, we'll have lost a good few million on him.
[/quote]
You are probably right. Footballers are earning some serious bucks these days - even the ones that aren't that great.
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38296.msg1027712#msg1027712 date=1262770745]That'll about cover his wages so far I reckon.
[/quote]
Nah, we'll have lost a good few million on him.
[/quote]
You are probably right. Footballers are earning some serious bucks these days - even the ones that aren't that great.
S
Squiggles
Guest
We can't sell our current first choice LB, not unless someone decent is actually ready to come in on the cheap.
The amount of players who, thanks to Rafa, can tell their grandkids that they played for the mighty Liverpool, despite having only a fraction of the talent required to do so, is quite frankly, staggering.
Ditto Souness, Uncle Roy and to some extent Houllier, to be fair.
S
Squiggles
Guest
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38296.msg1027756#msg1027756 date=1262774055]
The amount of players who, thanks to Rafa, can tell their grandkids that they played for the mighty Liverpool, despite having only a fraction of the talent required to do so, is quite frankly, staggering.
[/quote]
Even though I suspect his grand-kids will be too pissed to remember it in the morning, the thought of Pennant rehashing the story about being 'MOTM in a European Cup Final' makes me squirm.
The amount of players who, thanks to Rafa, can tell their grandkids that they played for the mighty Liverpool, despite having only a fraction of the talent required to do so, is quite frankly, staggering.
[/quote]
Even though I suspect his grand-kids will be too pissed to remember it in the morning, the thought of Pennant rehashing the story about being 'MOTM in a European Cup Final' makes me squirm.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38296.msg1027760#msg1027760 date=1262774164]
Ditto Souness, Uncle Roy and to some extent Houllier, to be fair.
[/quote]
True. Hopefully Rafa's learned something about freebies now though. That is, if they're free, there's usually a reason for it.
Ditto Souness, Uncle Roy and to some extent Houllier, to be fair.
[/quote]
True. Hopefully Rafa's learned something about freebies now though. That is, if they're free, there's usually a reason for it.
T
the_khl
Guest
[quote author=ILD link=topic=38296.msg1027744#msg1027744 date=1262773375]
I like Degen, he's fun. However I wouldnt trust him with basic defending tasks.
We're flying through RB's these days, we'll probably exercise our option to buy back Barragain at this rate.
[/quote]
I'm still hoping for Kelly to be the answer to our prayers (as a solid and inspiring back-up to Johnson).
He looked impressive against Lyon.
I like Degen, he's fun. However I wouldnt trust him with basic defending tasks.
We're flying through RB's these days, we'll probably exercise our option to buy back Barragain at this rate.
[/quote]
I'm still hoping for Kelly to be the answer to our prayers (as a solid and inspiring back-up to Johnson).
He looked impressive against Lyon.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38296.msg1027761#msg1027761 date=1262774274]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38296.msg1027756#msg1027756 date=1262774055]
The amount of players who, thanks to Rafa, can tell their grandkids that they played for the mighty Liverpool, despite having only a fraction of the talent required to do so, is quite frankly, staggering.
[/quote]
Even though I suspect they'll be too pissed to remember it in the morning, the thought of Pennant rehashing the story about being 'MOTM in a European Cup Final' to his grandkids makes me squirm.
[/quote]
Pennant is one of the Rafa signings that I really struggle to quantify on any level. I knew he was shit when we bought him, I knew he'd fail here, and I knew we'd lose plenty on the exorbitant price we paid for him. A really shit player and a mistake that should never have been made.
As keni alluded to in another thread, sometimes holding on to your money and biding your time is a much better option than spending it on fringe players and hoping they make the step up.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38296.msg1027756#msg1027756 date=1262774055]
The amount of players who, thanks to Rafa, can tell their grandkids that they played for the mighty Liverpool, despite having only a fraction of the talent required to do so, is quite frankly, staggering.
[/quote]
Even though I suspect they'll be too pissed to remember it in the morning, the thought of Pennant rehashing the story about being 'MOTM in a European Cup Final' to his grandkids makes me squirm.
[/quote]
Pennant is one of the Rafa signings that I really struggle to quantify on any level. I knew he was shit when we bought him, I knew he'd fail here, and I knew we'd lose plenty on the exorbitant price we paid for him. A really shit player and a mistake that should never have been made.
As keni alluded to in another thread, sometimes holding on to your money and biding your time is a much better option than spending it on fringe players and hoping they make the step up.
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38296.msg1027774#msg1027774 date=1262774950]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=38296.msg1027744#msg1027744 date=1262773375]
I like Degen, he's fun. However I wouldnt trust him with basic defending tasks.
We're flying through RB's these days, we'll probably exercise our option to buy back Barragain at this rate.
[/quote]
I'm still hoping for Kelly to be the answer to our prayers (as a solid and inspiring back-up to Johnson).
He looked impressive against Lyon.
[/quote]
And Sunderland I think.
[quote author=ILD link=topic=38296.msg1027744#msg1027744 date=1262773375]
I like Degen, he's fun. However I wouldnt trust him with basic defending tasks.
We're flying through RB's these days, we'll probably exercise our option to buy back Barragain at this rate.
[/quote]
I'm still hoping for Kelly to be the answer to our prayers (as a solid and inspiring back-up to Johnson).
He looked impressive against Lyon.
[/quote]
And Sunderland I think.
S
Squiggles
Guest
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38296.msg1027786#msg1027786 date=1262775690]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38296.msg1027761#msg1027761 date=1262774274]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38296.msg1027756#msg1027756 date=1262774055]
The amount of players who, thanks to Rafa, can tell their grandkids that they played for the mighty Liverpool, despite having only a fraction of the talent required to do so, is quite frankly, staggering.
[/quote]
Even though I suspect they'll be too pissed to remember it in the morning, the thought of Pennant rehashing the story about being 'MOTM in a European Cup Final' to his grandkids makes me squirm.
[/quote]
Pennant is one of the Rafa signings that I really struggle to quantify on any level. I knew he was shit when we bought him, I knew he'd fail here, and I knew we'd lose plenty on the exorbitant price we paid for him. A really shit player and a mistake that should never have been made.
As keni alluded to in another thread, sometimes holding on to your money and biding your time is a much better option than spending it on fringe players and hoping they make the step up.
[/quote]
Pennant had a decent season prior to joining us, but I agree: the signs he was an average player were apparent. I think there is a perception among many reds that we were somehow forced to buy Pennant because we couldn't afford Alvesat £13M. It's an example often used to defend his reign, which seems odd to me; On the one hand they're saying Benitez can identify a decent player at a good price, but that he's completely incapable of doing a similar task again, and therefore is forced to spend on mediocrity.
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=38296.msg1027761#msg1027761 date=1262774274]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=38296.msg1027756#msg1027756 date=1262774055]
The amount of players who, thanks to Rafa, can tell their grandkids that they played for the mighty Liverpool, despite having only a fraction of the talent required to do so, is quite frankly, staggering.
[/quote]
Even though I suspect they'll be too pissed to remember it in the morning, the thought of Pennant rehashing the story about being 'MOTM in a European Cup Final' to his grandkids makes me squirm.
[/quote]
Pennant is one of the Rafa signings that I really struggle to quantify on any level. I knew he was shit when we bought him, I knew he'd fail here, and I knew we'd lose plenty on the exorbitant price we paid for him. A really shit player and a mistake that should never have been made.
As keni alluded to in another thread, sometimes holding on to your money and biding your time is a much better option than spending it on fringe players and hoping they make the step up.
[/quote]
Pennant had a decent season prior to joining us, but I agree: the signs he was an average player were apparent. I think there is a perception among many reds that we were somehow forced to buy Pennant because we couldn't afford Alvesat £13M. It's an example often used to defend his reign, which seems odd to me; On the one hand they're saying Benitez can identify a decent player at a good price, but that he's completely incapable of doing a similar task again, and therefore is forced to spend on mediocrity.
That's a very slanted way of putting it. First of all, we did agree the asking price for Alves but Parry and the board decided they wouldn't release it all at once and held out for an instalment deal, to which Sevilla's reply effectively consisted of two words, the second of which was "off". [Source: Danny Murphy, after he left the club.] Secondly, we had a glaring gap in the team at RM which Rafa would have been hammered for not addressing. Thirdly, Pennant had a good enough season for Birmingham to suggest he might be a risk worth taking.
With the exception of Keane, Rafa's record in the market is undoubtedly better in the higher price bracket than in the middle to lower reaches. That, however, is only part of the story. He's had to try and rectify a decade and a half of drift and underperformance with - at best - similar resources to those of our closest competitors, all of whom had a head start on us. Despite the mistakes he's certainly made, statistical analysis of points and trophies gained per pound spent in player wages shows that he's outperformed both Wenger and Ginsoak.
With the exception of Keane, Rafa's record in the market is undoubtedly better in the higher price bracket than in the middle to lower reaches. That, however, is only part of the story. He's had to try and rectify a decade and a half of drift and underperformance with - at best - similar resources to those of our closest competitors, all of whom had a head start on us. Despite the mistakes he's certainly made, statistical analysis of points and trophies gained per pound spent in player wages shows that he's outperformed both Wenger and Ginsoak.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38296.msg1027846#msg1027846 date=1262778879]
That's a very slanted way of putting it. First of all, we did agree the asking price for Alves but Parry and the board decided they wouldn't release it all at once and held out for an instalment deal, to which Sevilla's reply effectively consisted of two words, the second of which was "off". [Source: Danny Murphy, after he left the club.] Secondly, we had a glaring gap in the team at RM which Rafa would have been hammered for not addressing. Thirdly, Pennant had a good enough season for Birmingham to suggest he might be a risk worth taking.
With the exception of Keane, Rafa's record in the market is undoubtedly better in the higher price bracket than in the middle to lower reaches. That, however, is only part of the story. He's had to try and rectify a decade and a half of drift and underperformance with - at best - similar resources to those of our closest competitors, all of whom had a head start on us. Despite the mistakes he's certainly made, statistical analysis of points and trophies gained per pound spent in player wages shows that he's outperformed both Wenger and Ginsoak.
[/quote]
Agree here JJ!
That's a very slanted way of putting it. First of all, we did agree the asking price for Alves but Parry and the board decided they wouldn't release it all at once and held out for an instalment deal, to which Sevilla's reply effectively consisted of two words, the second of which was "off". [Source: Danny Murphy, after he left the club.] Secondly, we had a glaring gap in the team at RM which Rafa would have been hammered for not addressing. Thirdly, Pennant had a good enough season for Birmingham to suggest he might be a risk worth taking.
With the exception of Keane, Rafa's record in the market is undoubtedly better in the higher price bracket than in the middle to lower reaches. That, however, is only part of the story. He's had to try and rectify a decade and a half of drift and underperformance with - at best - similar resources to those of our closest competitors, all of whom had a head start on us. Despite the mistakes he's certainly made, statistical analysis of points and trophies gained per pound spent in player wages shows that he's outperformed both Wenger and Ginsoak.
[/quote]
Agree here JJ!
Pennant was a panic buy, and a very expensive one at that. I would have preferred we'd got nothing and made do for half a season rather than waste £8m on him. I'm sure Rafa could have deflected any backlash from fans towards the board anyway. He's quite good at that. Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack the thread so I won't go on about it.
I agree re. the more expensive signings though, although the jury is still out on Aqua man.
I agree re. the more expensive signings though, although the jury is still out on Aqua man.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38296.msg1027846#msg1027846 date=1262778879]
That's a very slanted way of putting it. First of all, we did agree the asking price for Alves but Parry and the board decided they wouldn't release it all at once and held out for an instalment deal, to which Sevilla's reply effectively consisted of two words, the second of which was "off". [Source: Danny Murphy, after he left the club.] Secondly, we had a glaring gap in the team at RM which Rafa would have been hammered for not addressing. Thirdly, Pennant had a good enough season for Birmingham to suggest he might be a risk worth taking.
With the exception of Keane, Rafa's record in the market is undoubtedly better in the higher price bracket than in the middle to lower reaches. That, however, is only part of the story. He's had to try and rectify a decade and a half of drift and underperformance with - at best - similar resources to those of our closest competitors, all of whom had a head start on us. Despite the mistakes he's certainly made, statistical analysis of points and trophies gained per pound spent in player wages shows that he's outperformed both Wenger and Ginsoak.
[/quote]
You might well be correct, I have no idea. One thing though, how would Danny Murphy know anything about this?
That's a very slanted way of putting it. First of all, we did agree the asking price for Alves but Parry and the board decided they wouldn't release it all at once and held out for an instalment deal, to which Sevilla's reply effectively consisted of two words, the second of which was "off". [Source: Danny Murphy, after he left the club.] Secondly, we had a glaring gap in the team at RM which Rafa would have been hammered for not addressing. Thirdly, Pennant had a good enough season for Birmingham to suggest he might be a risk worth taking.
With the exception of Keane, Rafa's record in the market is undoubtedly better in the higher price bracket than in the middle to lower reaches. That, however, is only part of the story. He's had to try and rectify a decade and a half of drift and underperformance with - at best - similar resources to those of our closest competitors, all of whom had a head start on us. Despite the mistakes he's certainly made, statistical analysis of points and trophies gained per pound spent in player wages shows that he's outperformed both Wenger and Ginsoak.
[/quote]
You might well be correct, I have no idea. One thing though, how would Danny Murphy know anything about this?
S
Squiggles
Guest
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38296.msg1027846#msg1027846 date=1262778879]
That's a very slanted way of putting it. First of all, we did agree the asking price for Alves but Parry and the board decided they wouldn't release it all at once and held out for an instalment deal, to which Sevilla's reply effectively consisted of two words, the second of which was "off". [Source: Danny Murphy, after he left the club.] Secondly, we had a glaring gap in the team at RM which Rafa would have been hammered for not addressing. Thirdly, Pennant had a good enough season for Birmingham to suggest he might be a risk worth taking.
With the exception of Keane, Rafa's record in the market is undoubtedly better in the higher price bracket than in the middle to lower reaches. That, however, is only part of the story. He's had to try and rectify a decade and a half of drift and underperformance with - at best - similar resources to those of our closest competitors, all of whom had a head start on us. Despite the mistakes he's certainly made, statistical analysis of points and trophies gained per pound spent in player wages shows that he's outperformed both Wenger and Ginsoak.
[/quote]
That's all true, but we signed Pennant with a month to spare of the summer transfer window left. Considering we had £13M available to spend in a structured deal, we could have a lot better and not much worse.
I don't mind punts on these kind of players and accept that some go either way (I was for the Bellamy transfer for instance), and Pennant deserved a Premiership club to come in for him, he'd been Birmingham's star player after all. But unlike Bellamy, I don't believe Pennant demonstrated the raw talent to ever succeed at our club.
That's a very slanted way of putting it. First of all, we did agree the asking price for Alves but Parry and the board decided they wouldn't release it all at once and held out for an instalment deal, to which Sevilla's reply effectively consisted of two words, the second of which was "off". [Source: Danny Murphy, after he left the club.] Secondly, we had a glaring gap in the team at RM which Rafa would have been hammered for not addressing. Thirdly, Pennant had a good enough season for Birmingham to suggest he might be a risk worth taking.
With the exception of Keane, Rafa's record in the market is undoubtedly better in the higher price bracket than in the middle to lower reaches. That, however, is only part of the story. He's had to try and rectify a decade and a half of drift and underperformance with - at best - similar resources to those of our closest competitors, all of whom had a head start on us. Despite the mistakes he's certainly made, statistical analysis of points and trophies gained per pound spent in player wages shows that he's outperformed both Wenger and Ginsoak.
[/quote]
That's all true, but we signed Pennant with a month to spare of the summer transfer window left. Considering we had £13M available to spend in a structured deal, we could have a lot better and not much worse.
I don't mind punts on these kind of players and accept that some go either way (I was for the Bellamy transfer for instance), and Pennant deserved a Premiership club to come in for him, he'd been Birmingham's star player after all. But unlike Bellamy, I don't believe Pennant demonstrated the raw talent to ever succeed at our club.
[quote author=the_khl link=topic=38296.msg1027774#msg1027774 date=1262774950]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=38296.msg1027744#msg1027744 date=1262773375]
I like Degen, he's fun. However I wouldnt trust him with basic defending tasks.
We're flying through RB's these days, we'll probably exercise our option to buy back Barragain at this rate.
[/quote]
I'm still hoping for Kelly to be the answer to our prayers (as a solid and inspiring back-up to Johnson).
He looked impressive against Lyon.
[/quote]
you know what, considering the team is a complete joke it'd be stupid to leave a solid and inspiring player on the bench as a back-up. even darby who's not even that good was still a lot better than our other defenders. if kelly can play left back then id go for those two as soon as possible.
right now insua is too small and too slow, that's two ways of scoring we just willingly hand to the other team in every game. we can afford to make things that easy especially if we keep hoofing the ball back to these teams or our midfield just loses it to them.
[quote author=ILD link=topic=38296.msg1027744#msg1027744 date=1262773375]
I like Degen, he's fun. However I wouldnt trust him with basic defending tasks.
We're flying through RB's these days, we'll probably exercise our option to buy back Barragain at this rate.
[/quote]
I'm still hoping for Kelly to be the answer to our prayers (as a solid and inspiring back-up to Johnson).
He looked impressive against Lyon.
[/quote]
you know what, considering the team is a complete joke it'd be stupid to leave a solid and inspiring player on the bench as a back-up. even darby who's not even that good was still a lot better than our other defenders. if kelly can play left back then id go for those two as soon as possible.
right now insua is too small and too slow, that's two ways of scoring we just willingly hand to the other team in every game. we can afford to make things that easy especially if we keep hoofing the ball back to these teams or our midfield just loses it to them.
[quote author=Richey link=topic=38296.msg1027860#msg1027860 date=1262779645]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38296.msg1027846#msg1027846 date=1262778879]
That's a very slanted way of putting it. First of all, we did agree the asking price for Alves but Parry and the board decided they wouldn't release it all at once and held out for an instalment deal, to which Sevilla's reply effectively consisted of two words, the second of which was "off". [Source: Danny Murphy, after he left the club.] Secondly, we had a glaring gap in the team at RM which Rafa would have been hammered for not addressing. Thirdly, Pennant had a good enough season for Birmingham to suggest he might be a risk worth taking.
With the exception of Keane, Rafa's record in the market is undoubtedly better in the higher price bracket than in the middle to lower reaches. That, however, is only part of the story. He's had to try and rectify a decade and a half of drift and underperformance with - at best - similar resources to those of our closest competitors, all of whom had a head start on us. Despite the mistakes he's certainly made, statistical analysis of points and trophies gained per pound spent in player wages shows that he's outperformed both Wenger and Ginsoak.
[/quote]
You might well be correct, I have no idea. One thing though, how would Danny Murphy know anything about this?
[/quote]
I'd imagine such things are a lot harder to keep from people on the spot, as Zidanny was at the time, than they are to keep from outsiders. People talk.
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=38296.msg1027846#msg1027846 date=1262778879]
That's a very slanted way of putting it. First of all, we did agree the asking price for Alves but Parry and the board decided they wouldn't release it all at once and held out for an instalment deal, to which Sevilla's reply effectively consisted of two words, the second of which was "off". [Source: Danny Murphy, after he left the club.] Secondly, we had a glaring gap in the team at RM which Rafa would have been hammered for not addressing. Thirdly, Pennant had a good enough season for Birmingham to suggest he might be a risk worth taking.
With the exception of Keane, Rafa's record in the market is undoubtedly better in the higher price bracket than in the middle to lower reaches. That, however, is only part of the story. He's had to try and rectify a decade and a half of drift and underperformance with - at best - similar resources to those of our closest competitors, all of whom had a head start on us. Despite the mistakes he's certainly made, statistical analysis of points and trophies gained per pound spent in player wages shows that he's outperformed both Wenger and Ginsoak.
[/quote]
You might well be correct, I have no idea. One thing though, how would Danny Murphy know anything about this?
[/quote]
I'd imagine such things are a lot harder to keep from people on the spot, as Zidanny was at the time, than they are to keep from outsiders. People talk.
A 'decade and a half of drift'?
What the cunting fuck are you on about?
I could have sworn we won three trophies in 2001 and came 2nd in the Premiership a year later.
How is that 'drift'?
Or are you going to, as is your wont, refuse to afford any respect to the club under the tenures of Parry, Moores and Houllier?
What the cunting fuck are you on about?
I could have sworn we won three trophies in 2001 and came 2nd in the Premiership a year later.
How is that 'drift'?
Or are you going to, as is your wont, refuse to afford any respect to the club under the tenures of Parry, Moores and Houllier?
Seems as this will happen;
Liverpool defender Philipp Degen is expected to leave Anfield before the end of the transfer window with VfB Stuttgart favourites to capture the defender.
Die Roten are believed to be leading a whole host of German top-flight clubs hoping to offer the Swiss international a return to the Bundesliga following his switch to the Reds from Borussia Dortmund in 2008.
Despite arriving on a free transfer, the 26-year-old has failed to secure a place in Rafael Benitez's side following a string of injuries which have restricted him to just seven appearances during his 18 months on Merseyside.
Stuttgart boss Christian Gross is believed to be a strong admirer of the right-sided Degen with a fee in the region of £1.5 to £2 million being touted as an agreed price between the two clubs.
Liverpool defender Philipp Degen is expected to leave Anfield before the end of the transfer window with VfB Stuttgart favourites to capture the defender.
Die Roten are believed to be leading a whole host of German top-flight clubs hoping to offer the Swiss international a return to the Bundesliga following his switch to the Reds from Borussia Dortmund in 2008.
Despite arriving on a free transfer, the 26-year-old has failed to secure a place in Rafael Benitez's side following a string of injuries which have restricted him to just seven appearances during his 18 months on Merseyside.
Stuttgart boss Christian Gross is believed to be a strong admirer of the right-sided Degen with a fee in the region of £1.5 to £2 million being touted as an agreed price between the two clubs.
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=38296.msg1028018#msg1028018 date=1262789214]
A 'decade and a half of drift'?
What the cunting fuck are you on about?
I could have sworn we won three trophies in 2001 and came 2nd in the Premiership a year later.
How is that 'drift'?
Or are you going to, as is your wont, refuse to afford any respect to the club under the tenures of Parry, Moores and Houllier?
[/quote]
I and others have made the case in detail before now (during which, contrary to your insistence here, I've actually joined you in defending the better bits of Houlllier's record against his more indiscriminate critics, but you've been too busy spluttering to notice). However, since you ask:
No title since 1990 - cups are nice but not equivalent, not even Bigears, and the occasional second place certainly isn't;
No progress on the stadium after years of dithering before H and G ever came into the picture, despite more favourable economic conditions than they've faced;
Poor managerial appointments (Souness, Uncle Roy) and one clearly extended past its sell-by date (GH);
Years of failure on the commercial side at home (pisspoor ticket office and merchandising operations), abroad (lack of capitalisation on what's still a major brand name) and in terms of sponsorship (as Purslow has just amply demonstrated);
An academy whose output, apart from the occasional notable success, has failed to satisfy the last two managers.
There's no question that Rafa's made his own mistakes - his transfer record is very patchy and his stubbornness has done us (and him) no favours too many times. That doesn't alter the fact that this club was indifferently led for too long, and that that has left us with a bigger gap to narrow than should ever have become necessary.
A 'decade and a half of drift'?
What the cunting fuck are you on about?
I could have sworn we won three trophies in 2001 and came 2nd in the Premiership a year later.
How is that 'drift'?
Or are you going to, as is your wont, refuse to afford any respect to the club under the tenures of Parry, Moores and Houllier?
[/quote]
I and others have made the case in detail before now (during which, contrary to your insistence here, I've actually joined you in defending the better bits of Houlllier's record against his more indiscriminate critics, but you've been too busy spluttering to notice). However, since you ask:
No title since 1990 - cups are nice but not equivalent, not even Bigears, and the occasional second place certainly isn't;
No progress on the stadium after years of dithering before H and G ever came into the picture, despite more favourable economic conditions than they've faced;
Poor managerial appointments (Souness, Uncle Roy) and one clearly extended past its sell-by date (GH);
Years of failure on the commercial side at home (pisspoor ticket office and merchandising operations), abroad (lack of capitalisation on what's still a major brand name) and in terms of sponsorship (as Purslow has just amply demonstrated);
An academy whose output, apart from the occasional notable success, has failed to satisfy the last two managers.
There's no question that Rafa's made his own mistakes - his transfer record is very patchy and his stubbornness has done us (and him) no favours too many times. That doesn't alter the fact that this club was indifferently led for too long, and that that has left us with a bigger gap to narrow than should ever have become necessary.
And how has this 'drift' as you define it, been arrested by Benitez?
'Big Ears doesn't count' so we've got one 2nd place. Which is what GH delivered
'Big Ears doesn't count' so we've got one 2nd place. Which is what GH delivered
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