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Defence the Reason For Our Poor Season.

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Frogfish

Gone to Redcafe
Member
Look at some of the facts first :

We have scored just 3 goals less than United in 2nd and 8 less than Chelsea at the top, and stand 5th in the league for highest number of goals scored. However we have conceded 9 more than either United or Chelsea and stand 9th in the league in least number of goals conceded.

A look at the players and their performances so far this season (the ratings are for what I expect of them, not in relation to each other) :

Reina : A : where the hell would we be without one of the best keeper's in the world and THE best in the EPL ?
Cavalieri : B : although we have not seen much of him he has proved himself to be a very capable support keeper when required to play.
Insua : C+ : though tempted to give him a B I can't quite justify it due to the number of times he has proven to be fallible in his defensive duties. I actually think he is quite good going forward. His height is an issue for our now relatively small team too.
Aurelio : B+ : I like Fabio. He makes the occasional cock-up, as all players do, but is a gifted footballer. Better at LM if I am honest, even though he lacks pace, due to his ball retention and exceptional crossing and cross field passing to pick out players on the opposite flank / in the box. A key element in retaining possession.
Agger : B : classy player and the only CB we have capable of confidently bringing the ball out of defence. Needs to get on the end of more headers at set pieces a la Terry / Vidic.
Carra : C+ : If we wondered what has happened to Skrtel ....... well it applies even more to Carra. Heart on his sleeve, died in the wool, Mr Consistent, bleeds red Carra ..... has been an enigma. Our defensive stalwart last season turned into a fragile confidence lacking figure, capable of going from the sublime to the ridiculous in the blink of an eye, at the heart of our defence who only now seems to be getting back to the man we know and love. A blip is a game or two, this seems to be more serious. Did his heart and soul carry him through to the end of last season and only now are we seeing a rapid deterioration in his ability to perform to the highest levels ? I truly hope not. Where has this impostor hidden the real Carra !?!
Skrtel : D : what the hell has happened to make him so skittish ? Last season we seemed to have solved our future CB partnership question, now that is all up in the air again.
Johnson : A- : one or two defensive errors aside he is a pacy defender (which in itself is a major deterrent) and is superb in the attack rarely givng the ball away but capable of great trickery and assists (maybe his crossing could be more consistent since it runs the gamut of sublime to the ridiculous). Adds a dimension to our attack that we haven't had since ______ (insert your favourite recent Liverpool RW).
Kyrgiakos : B : Our 4th / 5th choice CB has performed quite well when required to do so and for what we required at the time was a good enough stand-in. Probably won't be around next season.
Degen : B : although we have not seen much of him he seems to be very capable going forward and adequate in defence.
Kelly : B : great young hope for the future. Seems to have a lot to his game and makes a very good back up to RB as well as CB.
Darby : C : a young player and of course that means a strong learning curve. Mistakes from young players are a given and so he shouldn't be crucified for those he's made - however the more senior players need to hold their hands up and say that they didn't always give him the cover / support he needed when considering his inexperience.
Masherano : A : whilst obviously not a defender per se I thought it worthwhile including him here to show that it isn't exactly (definition to follow) a weakness in the defensive CM position that has caused additional exposure / pressure to be put on our defence.

So for the 2nd half of the season where do we go from here and do we need to buy an additional defender in the January transfer window ?

Well to my knowledge we haven't been linked with any defenders, unlike last season, even though our defence is looking remarkably sieve-like at present. This may indicate that Rafa sees our defensive personnel as adequate and that this is more a dip in form / confidence than it is a lack of quality in the personnel.

If I were to select our first team back four then it would be : Johnson, Carra, Agger, Aurelio (though due to injury Insua has played a major part so far this year). The major difference from Arbeloa, Carra, Skrtel, Aurelio (our first team back line from last season), and leaving form and inexperience (Johnson / Insua) aside for the moment, is the additional propensity, with the exception of Carra, to go forward into midfield and attack. Quite contradictory to our perceived lack of attacking intent it seems.

However it may seem obvious to state but the loss of Xabi means Masherano seems to have taken on more of the midfield attacking onus this season due to Lucas' lack of regular attacking guile (whether in the form of passing, dribbling or ball retention further upfield) and it may be that when Aquilani settles into the side that Masherano no longer feels the need (or is instructed) to support further upfield and can find more time to protect the back four again.

Conclusion : I do not see the need to bring in an additional CB or FB, (unless we are in for a Lahm quality type signing at LB which I would certainly not turn my nose up at). In a complete juxtaposition to his perceived potential influence on the team I actually see Aquilani as the key to improved defensive performances by virtue of his ability to retain possession and instigate attacks, thereby relieving Masherano of attempting to compensate for Xabi's loss and let him concentrate on his true strength, shielding our back four, especially when our fullbacks (and Agger) go marauding forward.
 
I can't remember in which game it was but I do remember snapping with our defence and deciding I wanted us to sign a new CB. After having a few weeks to reflect on that, I haven't really changed my mind.

You can say that there has been an additional attacking dimension to the defence with Johnson and Insua at the fullback positions (although in certain games they have been instructed to stay deep, so it doesn't always apply) and you can also say that the midfield protection afforded to them in previous seasons by a rock solid midfield has all but vanished, however that doesn't excuse the multitude of shithouse mistakes we've seen game after game after game.

I want a backline that can stand on it's own two feet.
 
Oh yeah, as far as this season goes, then no... spend the money (if there is any) elsewhere.
 
i don't know if what you during the writing process confused yourself, but you proved how necessary it is for us to spend the money tryign to get another young cb who's prominence lies in the air. otherwise spectacular post, agree with all the rating but 2, one i think you should have followed your judgment with a B for Insua and I think Sotiris deserves less for giving us our first loss against Lyon. One of the many but probably the worst defensive errors we've to lose a game or lead all season

re: yeah I'm in the this is a priority camp. I want 3 competitive young CBs, if one could backup CB and play LB it would be a dream. Other spot of bother is CM, 3rd is wingers. I care more about being solid than scoring goals cause we score a lot. And our youngsters wingers(or players that might have to make there name there) impress.

unless we're willing to play Kelly, if he is ever fit again
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=37971.msg1015957#msg1015957 date=1261040768]
I can't remember in which game it was but I do remember snapping with our defence and deciding I wanted us to sign a new CB. After having a few weeks to reflect on that, I haven't really changed my mind.

You can say that there has been an additional attacking dimension to the defence with Johnson and Insua at the fullback positions (although in certain games they have been instructed to stay deep, so it doesn't always apply) and you can also say that the midfield protection afforded to them in previous seasons by a rock solid midfield has all but vanished, however that doesn't excuse the multitude of shithouse mistakes we've seen game after game after game.

I want a backline that can stand on it's own two feet.
[/quote]

So who do you want changed ? Insua ? Agger ? Carra ? Do you have anyone in mind as a replacement ?
 
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=37971.msg1015962#msg1015962 date=1261040952]
i don't know if what you during the writing process confused yourself, but you proved how necessary it is for us to spend the money tryign to get another young cb who's prominence lies in the air. otherwise spectacular post, agree with all the rating but 2, one i think you should have followed your judgment with a B for Insua and I think Sotiris deserves less for giving us our first loss against Lyon. One of the many but probably the worst defensive errors we've to lose a game or lead all season

re: yeah I'm in the this is a priority camp. I want 3 competitive young CBs, if one could backup CB and play LB it would be a dream. Other spot of bother is CM, 3rd is wingers. I care more about being solid than scoring goals cause we score a lot. And our youngsters wingers(or players that might have to make there name there) impress.

unless we're willing to play Kelly, if he is ever fit again
[/quote]

Agger / Skrtel are both OK in the air but otherwise you are looking at buying a new Sami / Vidic / Terry type player. People may point to Sami last season and say that his aerial dominance was important for us - but he wasn't a first choice CB and more importantly when he didn't play we still didn't have the aerial issues last year that we have seen this season from set pieces. I think that this may be due to a bedding in process for both Johnson and Insua and the fact Lucas is now a regular in replacing Xabi.

I wasn't advocating buying anyone actually - I was trying to decide whether it was actually a necessity or not. I find it hard to believe that essentially the same defensive core as last season has turned our defence into relegation fodder lookalikes and I'm trying to determine what thew root cause of that is.

I don't see too much of an issue further up the pitch (other than desperately needing another striker - but Rafa seems to feel having Kuyt anf N'Gog is sufficient) especially as Aquilani has hardly had a chance to get his feet wet yet. Lucas is a decent bench option for emergencies / Carling Cup matches and the like.

Pacheco, maybe Eccleston, Nemeth, Darby, Kelly and others from the Reserves that look like they may make the grade are good squad fillers (Xmas pun intended).

If we are still happy with (at least) Agger, Carra & Kelly with Kygriakos as 4th choice then that leaves Skrtel to be replaced. Do 6CMers want that ? Do you ?
 
We should have signed Dunne or Upson in summer.
But then we should have signed young, milner, bent, noble and about 30 other players we were linked with ahead of krygiakos.
 
Froggy I am sure it was very enlightening but your basic argument in the title is wrong.
It does not matter how may goals anyone else has scored or conceded it's about us not scoring.
The vast majority of the we goals scored were in the first couple of months of the season.
We scored 22 of our 34 goals in our first eight games and conceded 12 of our 23 in the same period.
So the defensive record is about the same, but we have scored 12 less goals, and you don't need to be a genius to work out that number of goals could equate to a shed load of points.
I am not saying the defence can't be improved, it can of course, but we do have plan B for all of the defensive positions, which despite a crisis has got us through, we simply don't have a plan B for when Torres is not available.
The closest we have got to that is when he played 442 last night.

regards


Liverpool 2 - 1 Wigan Athletic

Liverpool 1 - 2 Arsenal

Blackburn Rovers 0 - 0 Liverpool

Everton 0 - 2 Liverpool

Liverpool 2 - 2 Manchester City

Liverpool 2 - 2 Birmingham City

Fulham 3 - 1 Liverpool

Liverpool 2 - 0 Manchester United

Sunderland 1 - 0 Liverpool

Chelsea 2 - 0 Liverpool

Liverpool 6 - 1 Hull City

West Ham United 2 - 3 Liverpool

Liverpool 4 - 0 Burnley

Bolton Wanderers 2 - 3 Liverpool

Liverpool 1 - 3 Aston Villa

Liverpool 4 - 0 Stoke City

Tottenham Hotspur 2 - 1 Liverpool
 
Am I the only one who thought that Skyrtle was very good last night?
He made some great tackles, got across and covered Carra a good few times and even got forward well, on a few occasions.
 
Frogster I don't want to replace Skrtel. I want to replace Hyypia and have an eye on a Carra replacement in the Starting XI. I also don't think I'm relying on Agger Skrtel to have one fit of them at all times. And I'd rather Kelly play LB or deputise than be a legit contender. I'm working on the basis that this is Carra's last year if his form can improve. If Chiellini is as defensively strong as is all around game is impressive he'd by my ideal and unreachable target. So I would try and find someone with similar attributes. Maybe Hyypia has seen someone and we can ask him.

We are shorter than we are last year (insua + loss of Alonso; and we weren't even so good in the air last year- particularly set pieces) and we have adopted an attacking fullback. Defense is important and not to be fucked with. No harm in more defensive talent. Hey we could become a rar 3 cb 2 wb success story. Talent is always a gain in my book. I think our offensive options are good if you trust out youngsters. I would appreciate a genuinely pacy and creative player used to playing in teh attacking third but its more expensive and more risky considering the rigors of the PL forward.
 
[quote author=the count link=topic=37971.msg1015982#msg1015982 date=1261044148]
Am I the only one who thought that Skyrtle was very good last night?
He made some great tackles, got across and covered Carra a good few times and even got forward well, on a few occasions.
[/quote]

No I thought he had a good game, as did most of the defense to be honest apart from a couple of lapses in concentration

regards
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37971.msg1015979#msg1015979 date=1261043600]
Froggy I am sure it was very enlightening but your basic argument in the title is wrong.
It does not matter how may goals anyone else has scored or conceded it's about us not scoring.
The vast majority of the we goals scored were in the first couple of months of the season.
We scored 22 of our 34 goals in our first eight games and conceded 12 of our 23 in the same period.
So the defensive record is about the same, but we have scored 12 less goals, and you don't need to be a genius to work out that number of goals could equate to a shed load of points.
I am not saying the defence can't be improved, it can of course, but we do have plan B for all of the defensive positions, which despite a crisis has got us through, we simply don't have a plan B for when Torres is not available.
The closest we have got to that is when he played 442 last night.

regards


Liverpool 2 - 1 Wigan Athletic

Liverpool 1 - 2 Arsenal

Blackburn Rovers 0 - 0 Liverpool

Everton 0 - 2 Liverpool

Liverpool 2 - 2 Manchester City

Liverpool 2 - 2 Birmingham City

Fulham 3 - 1 Liverpool

Liverpool 2 - 0 Manchester United

Sunderland 1 - 0 Liverpool

Chelsea 2 - 0 Liverpool

Liverpool 6 - 1 Hull City

West Ham United 2 - 3 Liverpool

Liverpool 4 - 0 Burnley

Bolton Wanderers 2 - 3 Liverpool

Liverpool 1 - 3 Aston Villa

Liverpool 4 - 0 Stoke City

Tottenham Hotspur 2 - 1 Liverpool
[/quote]

I understand where you are coming from Vlad - I am with you all the way on the lack of a decent striking back up (as I said vehemently stated pre-season). However there are only 3 of those games we wouldn't have won had we kept a clean-sheet and there is no argument to be had re. the calamities we've endured at the back. As the saying goes it all starts with a strong defence.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37971.msg1015985#msg1015985 date=1261044601]
[quote author=the count link=topic=37971.msg1015982#msg1015982 date=1261044148]
Am I the only one who thought that Skyrtle was very good last night?
He made some great tackles, got across and covered Carra a good few times and even got forward well, on a few occasions.
[/quote]

No I thought he had a good game, as did most of the defense to be honest apart from a couple of lapses in concentration

regards
[/quote]

Yes, the whole defense did play well bar that lapse for the goal near the end.
Insua too had a good game and he linked well with Aurelio down the left. In fact they seemed to swap positions on a few occasions throughout the match which seemed to work well.

Did you get to your corporate do at the match last night Vlad?
No doubt while myself and my lad were slumming it in 305 you were partaking in as much turkey and wine as you could handle. Lucky sod.
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=37971.msg1015977#msg1015977 date=1261043410]
What has happened to the Kjaer rumours? It has gone a little bit quiet on this one.
[/quote]
Real Madrid has entered the frame as well, according to Italian newspapers.

It's going to be a tough battle to secure his signature and if we are to compete at all we'll have to sell at least one of our current defenders to raise cash I'm sure. Dossena and Skrtel's probably the most obvious choices as Kyrgiakos probably won't demand a fee at all.
 
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37971.msg1015985#msg1015985 date=1261044601]
[quote author=the count link=topic=37971.msg1015982#msg1015982 date=1261044148]
Am I the only one who thought that Skyrtle was very good last night?
He made some great tackles, got across and covered Carra a good few times and even got forward well, on a few occasions.
[/quote]

No I thought he had a good game, as did most of the defense to be honest apart from a couple of lapses in concentration

regards
[/quote]
I thought he had a good game too. Made some great runs as well.

In my opinion Gerrard was probably as much to blame as anyone last night. The way he got caught out spending to much time on the ball towards the end, when all he had to do was to pass it on to a better placed teammate, e.g. Torres, costed us another goal I'm sure.

He really is a shadow of his own self these days and it's obviously influencing confidence throughout.
 
There are some very obvious things about our defence this season.

Both our first choice full backs are suspect positionally and are/were aggressive in getting forward. Insua's weakness positionally is because he switches off every so often and Johnson I think primarily because of unfamiliarity. If that is the case with your fullbacks you need to have center halves that are exceptional in covering behind them when they mess up positionally and also good at pressuring high up the pitch when the full back is forward.

For me Agger is the only one who is complete enough to do this. I think that's why you are vacillating between B & C for Insua. With Agger to cover for his mistakes he's a B player, but when he's been alongside Carra/Skrtel/The Greek his mistakes have been more costly and he's been a C.

Unfortunately, on the other side we don't have a center half who is as complete and hence we have dialed back Johnson significantly so that Carragher is not isolated one on one as much and is covering rather than pressuring, so for me that pairing is a big big disappointment as Johnson is not allowed to fulfill his potential. He gets a B which is a pity because he is an A+ player and it's not his fault. Carragher has just been awful. If he wasn't so important psychologically and Skrtel hadn't fluffed his lines (while still being better than Carragher IMO), he would be out. He's done so many things this year that just defy explanation.

The midfield also isn't helping, Rafa has messed around with the roles to go to a more 442 type setup and so the defence is getting less support. In years gone past when we were under pressure Xabi as well as the normal screening would, on occasion, drop back into the defensive line to make up numbers or just to get us numbers up. That's not happening anymore, once you get through our midfield screen the defence is on their own. The own goal we were talking about in the ratings thread is a perfect example, if Xabi was playing where Mascherano was, he would have dropped behind Agger into the defensive line. It all means more pressure on the defence and inevitably more goals.

We've also been pissing around with our zonal marking scheme, understandably as we are not great aerially and the changes seemed pretty straightforward to me, but it's cost us on a couple of occasions.

Chuck in unsettled line-ups and too many games where the front 4 are giving up possession too easily causing pressure on the midfield in turn causing pressure on the defence and you have our season.
 
[quote author=the count link=topic=37971.msg1015991#msg1015991 date=1261045758]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=37971.msg1015985#msg1015985 date=1261044601]
[quote author=the count link=topic=37971.msg1015982#msg1015982 date=1261044148]
Am I the only one who thought that Skyrtle was very good last night?
He made some great tackles, got across and covered Carra a good few times and even got forward well, on a few occasions.
[/quote]

No I thought he had a good game, as did most of the defense to be honest apart from a couple of lapses in concentration

regards
[/quote]

Yes, the whole defense did play well bar that lapse for the goal near the end.
Insua too had a good game and he linked well with Aurelio down the left. In fact they seemed to swap positions on a few occasions throughout the match which seemed to work well.

Did you get to your corporate do at the match last night Vlad?
No doubt while myself and my lad were slumming it in 305 you were partaking in as much turkey and wine as you could handle. Lucky sod.
[/quote]

I noticed this the other day, Insua is good 1 on 1 but poor covering behind, Auerlio with all his experience is much better covering. So it seems like when we are pressed back, Insua and Auerlio swap around; Insua presses and Aurelio covers which is the opposite of what you would expect but makes sense given their relative strengths (or weaknesses if your prefer).
 
yeah cos the last time Kelly played at LB for the first team he was excellent..

[quote author=Assulin link=topic=37971.msg1015983#msg1015983 date=1261044267]
Frogster I don't want to replace Skrtel. I want to replace Hyypia and have an eye on a Carra replacement in the Starting XI. I also don't think I'm relying on Agger Skrtel to have one fit of them at all times. And I'd rather Kelly play LB or deputise than be a legit contender. I'm working on the basis that this is Carra's last year if his form can improve. If Chiellini is as defensively strong as is all around game is impressive he'd by my ideal and unreachable target. So I would try and find someone with similar attributes. Maybe Hyypia has seen someone and we can ask him.

We are shorter than we are last year (insua + loss of Alonso; and we weren't even so good in the air last year- particularly set pieces) and we have adopted an attacking fullback. Defense is important and not to be fucked with. No harm in more defensive talent. Hey we could become a rar 3 cb 2 wb success story. Talent is always a gain in my book. I think our offensive options are good if you trust out youngsters. I would appreciate a genuinely pacy and creative player used to playing in teh attacking third but its more expensive and more risky considering the rigors of the PL forward.
[/quote]
 
Playing Lucas with Mascher in the middle is the main reason of our poor season.
Our team has become completely unbalanced with Lucas instead of Alonso.
That has created a huge gasp that leaves Torres lonely up front and our defense very exposed.
And when you consider GJo and Insua arent very good defenders, its not really helping.

Once again I cant blame Lucas for being picked week in week out.
 
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=37971.msg1015998#msg1015998 date=1261046641]
There are some very obvious things about our defence this season.

Both our first choice full backs are suspect positionally and are/were aggressive in getting forward. Insua's weakness positionally is because he switches off every so often and Johnson I think primarily because of unfamiliarity. If that is the case with your fullbacks you need to have center halves that are exceptional in covering behind them when they mess up positionally and also good at pressuring high up the pitch when the full back is forward.

For me Agger is the only one who is complete enough to do this. I think that's why you are vacillating between B & C for Insua. With Agger to cover for his mistakes he's a B player, but when he's been alongside Carra/Skrtel/The Greek his mistakes have been more costly and he's been a C.

Unfortunately, on the other side we don't have a center half who is as complete and hence we have dialed back Johnson significantly so that Carragher is not isolated one on one as much and is covering rather than pressuring, so for me that pairing is a big big disappointment as Johnson is not allowed to fulfill his potential. He gets a B which is a pity because he is an A+ player and it's not his fault. Carragher has just been awful. If he wasn't so important psychologically and Skrtel hadn't fluffed his lines (while still being better than Carragher IMO), he would be out. He's done so many things this year that just defy explanation.

The midfield also isn't helping, Rafa has messed around with the roles to go to a more 442 type setup and so the defence is getting less support. In years gone past when we were under pressure Xabi as well as the normal screening would, on occasion, drop back into the defensive line to make up numbers or just to get us numbers up. That's not happening anymore, once you get through our midfield screen the defence is on their own. The own goal we were talking about in the ratings thread is a perfect example, if Xabi was playing where Mascherano was, he would have dropped behind Agger into the defensive line. It all means more pressure on the defence and inevitably more goals.

We've also been pissing around with our zonal marking scheme, understandably as we are not great aerially and the changes seemed pretty straightforward to me, but it's cost us on a couple of occasions.

Chuck in unsettled line-ups and too many games where the front 4 are giving up possession too easily causing pressure on the midfield in turn causing pressure on the defence and you have our season.
[/quote]

An interesting post which in essence (I think) agrees with my premise of the issue (besides the defence's almost inexplicable propensity for catastrophic individual errors) being Masherano almost being forced to try to cover two areas of the pitch, assisting Lucas in trying to support the attack and be more creative, and his natural position of screening the defence.

Your criticism of Carra is severe, do you think it's terminal decline or a loss of form brought about maybe from the extra pressure being brought to bear on the defence ? As I said earlier he does seem to be performing heroically at times, only to then suffer a complete defensive aberration by seemingly totally switching off.

We seem to be swinging the balance of blame here towards Lucas and I can't say that that is completely fair. His performances may be merely average overall and his style of play incontrovertibly different to Xabi's but we shouldn't be letting the defence off the hook so easily.
 
Regardless of the reasons behind it whatever reshuffle or use of resources rafa came up with or didnt this season it has been a badly taken gamble.

IMO there was not that much wrong with what we had in defence last season, to spend our entire budget on Johnson was IMHO a total fuck up, i think he is a much much better attacker than Arbeloa but we should have spent the money on a back up for Torres or a attacking player... its that fucking simple.

As for selling Alonso, in world cup year we had him over a barrel, i would rather we'd kept him and let him sulk about it for a few months than buy in a player who hasn't really played in a year and seemingly may well not fit into our system of play anyway.

As a total RCDNWer i have to say that stingy fucking leach owners aside Rafa fucked it right up this summer, and thats the second time hes done it now. Now Rafa selling Alonso may well have been unavoidable but at the same time... and indeed i very much suspect that Rafa expected to actually recieve some actual real transfer funds and not have his budget swallowed by debts however....

We were plenty attacking enough last season we just needed another card to play against stubborn defensive opponents.... Johnson, improvement though he is, is not and was not the right pick.
 
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37971.msg1016025#msg1016025 date=1261049460]
yeah cos the last time Kelly played at LB for the first team he was excellent..
[/quote]

lol, Drossena strikes again...He played LB/CB for Huddersfield and their fans absolutely loved him. Because he always seems capable and confident.
 
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=37971.msg1016216#msg1016216 date=1261073521]
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37971.msg1016025#msg1016025 date=1261049460]
yeah cos the last time Kelly played at LB for the first team he was excellent..
[/quote]

lol, Drossena strikes again...He played LB/CB for Huddersfield and their fans absolutely loved him. Because he always seems capable and confident.
[/quote]

Don't worry, we can knock that out of him in no time
 
[quote author=Assulin link=topic=37971.msg1016216#msg1016216 date=1261073521]
[quote author=dossena link=topic=37971.msg1016025#msg1016025 date=1261049460]
yeah cos the last time Kelly played at LB for the first team he was excellent..
[/quote]

lol, Drossena strikes again...He played LB/CB for Huddersfield and their fans absolutely loved him. Because he always seems capable and confident.
[/quote]
Insua or Aurelio would be Huddersfield best player if they played for them.
 
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=37971.msg1016091#msg1016091 date=1261059123]
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=37971.msg1015998#msg1015998 date=1261046641]
There are some very obvious things about our defence this season.

Both our first choice full backs are suspect positionally and are/were aggressive in getting forward. Insua's weakness positionally is because he switches off every so often and Johnson I think primarily because of unfamiliarity. If that is the case with your fullbacks you need to have center halves that are exceptional in covering behind them when they mess up positionally and also good at pressuring high up the pitch when the full back is forward.

For me Agger is the only one who is complete enough to do this. I think that's why you are vacillating between B & C for Insua. With Agger to cover for his mistakes he's a B player, but when he's been alongside Carra/Skrtel/The Greek his mistakes have been more costly and he's been a C.

Unfortunately, on the other side we don't have a center half who is as complete and hence we have dialed back Johnson significantly so that Carragher is not isolated one on one as much and is covering rather than pressuring, so for me that pairing is a big big disappointment as Johnson is not allowed to fulfill his potential. He gets a B which is a pity because he is an A+ player and it's not his fault. Carragher has just been awful. If he wasn't so important psychologically and Skrtel hadn't fluffed his lines (while still being better than Carragher IMO), he would be out. He's done so many things this year that just defy explanation.

The midfield also isn't helping, Rafa has messed around with the roles to go to a more 442 type setup and so the defence is getting less support. In years gone past when we were under pressure Xabi as well as the normal screening would, on occasion, drop back into the defensive line to make up numbers or just to get us numbers up. That's not happening anymore, once you get through our midfield screen the defence is on their own. The own goal we were talking about in the ratings thread is a perfect example, if Xabi was playing where Mascherano was, he would have dropped behind Agger into the defensive line. It all means more pressure on the defence and inevitably more goals.

We've also been pissing around with our zonal marking scheme, understandably as we are not great aerially and the changes seemed pretty straightforward to me, but it's cost us on a couple of occasions.

Chuck in unsettled line-ups and too many games where the front 4 are giving up possession too easily causing pressure on the midfield in turn causing pressure on the defence and you have our season.
[/quote]

An interesting post which in essence (I think) agrees with my premise of the issue (besides the defence's almost inexplicable propensity for catastrophic individual errors) being Masherano almost being forced to try to cover two areas of the pitch, assisting Lucas in trying to support the attack and be more creative, and his natural position of screening the defence.

Your criticism of Carra is severe, do you think it's terminal decline or a loss of form brought about maybe from the extra pressure being brought to bear on the defence ? As I said earlier he does seem to be performing heroically at times, only to then suffer a complete defensive aberration by seemingly totally switching off.

We seem to be swinging the balance of blame here towards Lucas and I can't say that that is completely fair. His performances may be merely average overall and his style of play incontrovertibly different to Xabi's but we shouldn't be letting the defence off the hook so easily.
[/quote]

I didn't mean to make it sound like Carragher was to blame for stuff nor that he was a poor player. Carragher is a world class "sweeper" (in the sweeper/stopper sense), but he is very weak when he has to defend space in front and behind him. You could see this clearly when he played for England. We decided to start out the season with a system that required us to play to his weaknesses. IMO Johnson and Carragher were never going to complement each other optimally and that is more the fault of a) the guy who chose to pair them and b) a coaching system that thought it was acceptable to crank out one dimensional players.

His decline is definitely not terminal as we've seen. His awful performances early in the season were down to confidence IMO. Knowing he had to play up the pitch where he is weak, knowing if he made a mistake up the pitch Johnson was probably not good enough positionally to bail him out add on top his fixation on his age and TBH I'm not surprised his mind was racing. Some of the bizarre things he did can only be explained by brain farts nothing to do with pace or physical demands. With the changes we've made he'll be back in his comfort zone and back to his best IMO.

I agree about Mascherano BTW, he's doing two jobs at half measure though. Hopefully when Aquilani gets integrated into the team he will be told to concentrate on just one and he will do it better than he is at the moment.

Lucas is the last player I would blame. He's the more box to box of the two midfielder and the amount of defensive work he does none the less is prodigious. If you compare his defensive work to similar players who play in the same sort of role, for example, Mark Noble, you will see just how good he is in that respect.
 
I am either having a deja vu moment reading that last post from Drizzt (the Carra bit) or senility has started early 🙁
 
Doss, Imo there would be much greater advantage to blooding a youngster in our lb position. there is slightly more leniancy from a fullback than at centerback. We are more desperate in that area. And I want him to get experience in all positions for us.
 
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=37971.msg1016565#msg1016565 date=1261115190]
I am either having a deja vu moment reading that last post from Drizzt (the Carra bit) or senility has started early 🙁
[/quote]

I don't follow. Explain please.
 
[quote author=drizzt link=topic=37971.msg1016609#msg1016609 date=1261128385]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=37971.msg1016565#msg1016565 date=1261115190]
I am either having a deja vu moment reading that last post from Drizzt (the Carra bit) or senility has started early 🙁
[/quote]

I don't follow. Explain please.
[/quote] Did you post your opinion on Carra (or most of it) elsewhere in the forum recently ? Because I could swear I've read that before, so either you have or it really was a deja vu !
 
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