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Carroll - I wasn't given a chance

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Let's be fair to him. He scored goals in an easy championship campaign, and started out well in a team set up specifically to his style/strengths

He wasn't a proven premier league player, and Kenny took a punt on him developing further. He didn't, he stalled and didn't have anything else to rely on.


r won't fit into Brendans Livercalona.
 
LeTallecWiz said:
He scored an important goal in the semi, but to say 'he got us to the final'? You're building up his contribution in the cup run as if he was the only one who did anything.
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I think you might have forgotten a man of the match performance against Man U in the 3rd round.
 
dmishra said:
Just a matter of record - he made 47 appearances last season (30 starts) last season - second highest in the squad.
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How many of them were starts? The 'appearances' is very ambiguous. You can't get a run together when you're on the bench for five games, get a start, put in a good performance and then end up getting 3 minutes running down the clock in the next match.
 
mark1975 said:
How many of them were starts? The 'appearances' is very ambiguous. You can't get a run together when you're on the bench for five games, get a start, put in a good performance and then end up getting 3 minutes running down the clock in the next match.
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he does say in the post 30 starts
 
Fabio said:
he does say in the post 30 starts
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And a few of them were when Suarez was out, and that was the only reason he ended up starting. I'm not saying it was all everyone else's fault, sometimes his attitude stank and he was poor, but there were times when he was chomping at the bit and he'd keep getting his confidence kicked by being fucked around.
 
mark1975 said:
How many of them were starts? The 'appearances' is very ambiguous. You can't get a run together when you're on the bench for five games, get a start, put in a good performance and then end up getting 3 minutes running down the clock in the next match.
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Thats more like my memory of events
 
gkmacca said:
No I'm not. I was talking about the semi final. And if you're nitpicking I'd say 'shit' was more of a target than 'he got us into the final'!
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If I remember it correctly Suarez probably was our best player in the semi.
 
I think it's best for him and us that he's gone. He's too slow and static to be in our team. And it's not like he scored loads of goals for us either. West ham suits his strengths, we don't. Rodgers saw him in training and wasn't impressed so why would he play him?

Can't say I've regretted him going at all.
 
i'm worried his value will depreciate further at west ham. at least if he stayed here we could convince people that if he played he would score, but he is playing there and not scoring....
 
mark1975 said:
How many of them were starts? The 'appearances' is very ambiguous. You can't get a run together when you're on the bench for five games, get a start, put in a good performance and then end up getting 3 minutes running down the clock in the next match.
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The point is he got a lot of playing time, including consistent stretches of it (even though he may have had a start-stop scenario at times) - certainly more than enough playing time to counter a suggestion that he wasn't given a 'fair crack' last season. He was, and he performed well under par.

Whether he still deserved a chance this season is another question, which I wasn't really arsed to get into, but I'll bite now for lack of anything better to do.

Firstly, I think it’s stating the obvious that everyone knew from the day we signed him that he wasn’t worth 35 million, and that we were never going to get that value’s worth. 35 million in the current market fetches you a potential top 5 player in the world – the likes of Aguero, Hazard and Falcao, but we blew it on a player who's struggled to be a top 5 player at a top 4 club. Additionally, when you spend that money on that sort of player in the right age bracket (20-24), you would expect his value to appreciate considerably (I’d wager that any of Aguero, Hazard and Falcao would be worth about 60 million today). But that’s an aside. We all knew that Carroll was never going to be a top 5 player in the word. We all knew that this value would never appreciate. The question has always been how best to realize the value of an over-expensive asset. IMO, there are/were two alternatives:

1. Realise that value long-term – develop him as a consistent, hard-working 10-12 goal a season player who sticks around for a good 8-10 years. That’d be 35 million well realized in my book.

2. Cut our losses – abandon the idea of taking the burden of developing him, sell him while his value in the market (based primarily on potential), although depleted is still high enough to successfully re-invest that money in the market for significantly better value.

Now, consider the two options with the perspective of what's required to realise them:

1. Developing him as a consistent, hard-working 10-12 goal getter –

Now, I think Carroll has the potential to be two kinds of players –

a. the kind of player he’s been brought up to be – old-fashioned centre-forward who thrives on a system tailored for him completely – consistent aerial service, runners from midfield, and a system which still practices that inefficient style of football for lack of better talent – that could mean a potential 15-20 goal/season player, but with the potential downside of an injury fraught career given the physical nature of such a role (Duncan Ferguson and John Hartson come to mind); or
b. re-invent him as a modern face-the-goal battering ram – a poor man’s Drogba so to speak i.e. focus on attributes other than his aerial ability, being his strength, running power, and shooting, and develop him as a player with the potential to lead the line in a more modern 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 system.

Now considering that option (a) isn’t really an option for us, consider the possibility of (b). There’s obviously, as I said, a fair bit to work with – strength, running power, great left-foot, , willingness to work, decent-ish touch. But consider what needs to be taught or ironed out or is completely missing – his ridiculously high centre of gravity (meaning he will always be an atrocious back-to-goal player), his diabolical movement (which is really a basic skill, and as important a skill you need to lead the line in a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 set-up) and lack of any considerable guile. That’s still a hell of a lot of work to do to get him to be that consistent 10-12 goal getter in this set-up.

2. Flogging him out – Sure, we're with only two recognised strikers at the club, and are bereft of any options whatsoever this season if they get injured. But long-term, how does that really matter? What exactly do we lose/have lost by not having the option to play Carroll? People have gone on and on about the last day of the transfer window being an absolute disaster because we flogged Carroll and failed to bring in Dempsey. For starters, neither Carroll or Dempsey would’ve made the difference between where we currently stand and a 4th place finish, and given that, I’m honestly not arsed that we flogged Carroll and failed to bring in Dempsey (If anything, I’m delighted that we didn’t waste any money on a peaked player who would have had no long term impact on our footballing fortunes whatsoever – paying 6 million for an extra 8-10 points unless those points mean something significant just compounds the problem that years of wastefulness have landed us in). Rosco and co. have gone about this season being an exercise in cutting payroll and developing talent and that’s exactly right – if you’re shit, be shit cheap, and make sure you develop young talent while you’re shit. It makes absolutely no sense to shell out money to be slightly less shit. It’s common practice in the NBA – if you’re loaded with an expensive roster with the maximum potential to say reach only the first round of the playoffs – you trade all your expensive contracts for youth/draft picks, possibly even tank for better opportunities in the draft – re-assemble your roster over 2-3 seasons and take a fresh crack at building a title-worthy squad (it’s been done for years and years, and teams who’re really successful are the ones who do it well. Teams who fuck around trying to stay in the middle remain exactly there, and never move forward). It’s why I’m perfectly okay waiting for another 6 months to spend any money that’s been earmarked from a potential Carroll sale on the right target – a target who’ll represent long-term value for the club.

Given that, which of the options do you go for? It isn’t surprising that Rodgers went for (2) and sent him packing to West Ham with a view to sell him at the highest possible price next summer.

That said, while I’m ok with the decision and have made my peace with the fact that we’re going to make a loss on him, the thing that really concerns me that he’s gone to West Ham and gotten injured and done fuck all. That’s landed us in a situation where his value has probably depreciated further. It almost makes me wish we’d sold him to Newcastle for the alleged 15 million offer they made. If there’s anything that can make this a total clusterfuck is if he goes the entire season scoring some 4-5 goals, and shows himself to be a 6 million player. That’s what we really need to be worried about because then option 2 clearly goes out of the window, and we’re left without funds to bring someone else in, and only the option of trying to re-develop him as a player.
 
Some good points, but I dont agree that he was given a fair chance and run in the team last season. We discussed this several times last year, but he would usually play 2-3 games and find some form and then get benched again. 21 starts in the league isnt that many tbh.
Kenny benched him in several games were he should have started.

You can see why Brendan opted for a transfer as he doesnt fit in. He isnt mobile enough nor is he technical enough either.

He's been very good for West Ham and obvs is suited to a direct style. The best thing for us and him is a move there.
I like him as he seems like a decent lad who just wants to play football. But he isnt good enough and the best for both sides is a move elsewhere.

A mate of mine met Danny Simpson in Marbella and he said Carroll could never move back to Newcastle. The city wasnt good for him and neither were the people he used to hang out with.
 
Hansern said:
Some good points, but I dont agree that he was given a fair chance and run in the team last season. We discussed this several times last year, but he would usually play 2-3 games and find some form and then get benched again. 21 starts in the league isnt that many tbh.
Kenny benched him in several games were he should have started.

You can see why Brendan opted for a transfer as he doesnt fit in. He isnt mobile enough nor is he technical enough either.

He's been very good for West Ham and obvs is suited to a direct style. The best thing for us and him is a move there.
I like him as he seems like a decent lad who just wants to play football. But he isnt good enough and the best for both sides is a move elsewhere.

A mate of mine met Danny Simpson in Marbella and he said Carroll could never move back to Newcastle. The city wasnt good for him and neither were the people he used to hang out with.
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You don't think that Carroll was given a fair chance, but you go on to say he's not mobile or technical enough. Can't have it both ways!
 
Judge Jules said:
You don't think that Carroll was given a fair chance, but you go on to say he's not mobile or technical enough. Can't have it both ways!
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Well, I'm just stating my opinion regarding his chances and apperances from last season.
We've changed our style of play and football philosophy quite drastically during the summer, and now he doesnt fit in anymore.
 
Woland said:
I think you might have forgotten a man of the match performance against Man U in the 3rd round.
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Woland - who dominated Stoke and Everton? and the other games? Ok ... I'm not understating his role in that run, just don't want to overstate it either.
 
Jesus, he twatted the scum and beat the shite... You might not like the cunt but it doesn't get much better than that.

I bet you moan while your bird is blowing you that she didn't wash the sheets
 
Woland said:
Jesus, he twatted the scum and beat the shite... You might not like the cunt but it doesn't get much better than that.

I bet you moan while your bird is blowing you that she didn't wash the sheets
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Suarez was by far the more dominant force against Everton (If memory serves me well, carroll was a second half sub no?) ... I have no problems with Carroll, feel bad for him nowadays like I do for Downing, but at least he'll be a full England international for the next decade and probably be a 15-20 goal a season scorer for the hammers ...
 
From some newcastle site that popped up in NewsNow ....probably shite of course but at the moment i still get the feeling he's not planning to stay at West Ham .

But come the summer ... Carroll will be heading to St James' Park!
How do we know? Nod-nod wink-wink ... a little bird told us.
Well ... a 6ft 5" Magpie!
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He's right though , he never had a proper chance to prove himself . Like somone said the other day in regards to the young lads in the team now , there's nothing more settling then knowing a manager trusts you and will pick you week in, week out no matter if you have a bad game here or there . Carroll never got that chance , Dalglish never fully trusted him from pretty much the start so I have no idea why he was bought . At the time i didn't think FSG were stupid enough to make a "big" signing just to keep the fans happy but obviously they were .And Comolli is obviously a knob .

And so Rodgers didn't fancy him , what's so strange about that ? ...lots of new mangers come in and ship out players the previous manager bought . Why should he give him a chance just because the previous management team payed crazy money for him ? The most damning part for me was that everyone knew he was available but nobody really came in for him .

Anyway despite all our issues I don't really miss him at all . Hopefully that 19m deal with West Ham is true , they stay up and he decides to stay there .
 
We've missed all the goals he's been banging in for West Ham.
 
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