borussia Dortmund
- Thread starter Rosco
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Status
They won't get relegated but something is seriously going wrong.
Maybe teams have snuffed out the style they play?
I dunno but they have had some vastly overrated players who've done fuck all once they've left the club.
Sahin and Kagawa being examples.
Gotze is the only real big success story since he's left there.
I think Munich just scout and handpick the players they want off them.
The rest probably weren't good enough.
Maybe teams have snuffed out the style they play?
I dunno but they have had some vastly overrated players who've done fuck all once they've left the club.
Sahin and Kagawa being examples.
Gotze is the only real big success story since he's left there.
I think Munich just scout and handpick the players they want off them.
The rest probably weren't good enough.
And as for Sahin and kagawa.... Both brilliant players
Kagawa never got any consistency at United, in playing time or form
Sahin ruined his career going to Madrid. He was decent for us, but at that time we played a system he was unsuited to.
Honestly how we played last season, and even this current formation he'd suit brilliantly
Just looked up the stats for the league (Squawka):
Offensively, they are:
- 3rd in the league in shots per game
- 2nd in the league in shots in the penalty area
- 2nd in the league in shots outside the penalty area
- 3rd in the league in chances created
- 4th worst in shot accuracy (excluding blocked shots)
Defensively, they are:
- joint-2nd in defensive errors
- 1st in defensive errors leading to goals
Those are just the symptoms of course. Who knows what the root cause is. I suspect it's basically like us, where the lack of production up front increases the pressure on the back and it just breaks.
They sold their top scorer, their next best scorer has been injury-plagued, their 3rd best scorer hasn't made much progress from last season, and their new Italian striker hasn't really been a success in the league. Some of the similarities to our situation before we hit our recent form are pretty uncanny. I suppose if you can't put the ball into the net, then the pressure is on the defence to earn you points.
I guess, after enough games, the frustration sets in, the concentration goes and then the confidence just goes out.
Scary how a good situation can collapse just like that.
Offensively, they are:
- 3rd in the league in shots per game
- 2nd in the league in shots in the penalty area
- 2nd in the league in shots outside the penalty area
- 3rd in the league in chances created
- 4th worst in shot accuracy (excluding blocked shots)
Defensively, they are:
- joint-2nd in defensive errors
- 1st in defensive errors leading to goals
Those are just the symptoms of course. Who knows what the root cause is. I suspect it's basically like us, where the lack of production up front increases the pressure on the back and it just breaks.
They sold their top scorer, their next best scorer has been injury-plagued, their 3rd best scorer hasn't made much progress from last season, and their new Italian striker hasn't really been a success in the league. Some of the similarities to our situation before we hit our recent form are pretty uncanny. I suppose if you can't put the ball into the net, then the pressure is on the defence to earn you points.
I guess, after enough games, the frustration sets in, the concentration goes and then the confidence just goes out.
Scary how a good situation can collapse just like that.
Excellent point about Sahin, Fabs. Glad I'm not the only one who's thought that.
I think Sahin suffered from some of the problems that Joe Allen also faces in our team. They both want to be the 2nd central midfielder. Not the out and out defensive one or the attacking one, the 2nd midfielder of a midfield three if that makes any sense?
Allen is a bit screwed in our set up. Lucas is better than him as the DM. Henderson is better than him as the 2nd midfielder and Gerrard plus a host of others are better than him as the attacking midfielder of the three.
Sahin played as the attacking midfielder for us for a bit in an effort to pigeon hole him into the team. At Dortmund he was more of a deep lying play maker. With us he was asked to get into the box and link up with the forwards. Joe Allen was also asked to play this role when he first arrived.
Allen is a bit screwed in our set up. Lucas is better than him as the DM. Henderson is better than him as the 2nd midfielder and Gerrard plus a host of others are better than him as the attacking midfielder of the three.
Sahin played as the attacking midfielder for us for a bit in an effort to pigeon hole him into the team. At Dortmund he was more of a deep lying play maker. With us he was asked to get into the box and link up with the forwards. Joe Allen was also asked to play this role when he first arrived.
How's Mick doing?
Lewandowski leaving was a big blow - but in Immobile they signed an adequate replacement.
The other issue is Reus being missing large chunks of the season due to injury.
But the biggest problem has been the defence.
Matts Hummel, after his world class performances at the WC, has been absolute shambles all season - as have Sokratis, Subotic & co.
The other issue is Reus being missing large chunks of the season due to injury.
But the biggest problem has been the defence.
Matts Hummel, after his world class performances at the WC, has been absolute shambles all season - as have Sokratis, Subotic & co.
I haven't been watching them much this season, but I guess the biggest problem is that Klopp turned out to be less tactically flexible than Rodgers. They were having very similar issues to us – lack of cutting edge due to the loss of their star striker and porous defense. Rodgers was able to re-balance the team by adding one extra player in defense + a dedicated DM. Now we attack with less numbers, score less, but also concede MUCH less and that allowed us to go on a winning run. Klopp mostly stuck to his formation and was just shuffling players around hoping those numerous chances they are creating would start going in eventually, but so far that hasn't happened. Looks like the fundamental balance of that team is wrong.
Presumably, the longer this goes on, the more his chances of getting a big job elsewhere are suffering.
Remember when people were calling for Klopp to replace BR? I think Dortmund's situation and similarities shows you have to give BR credit for being brave enough to change the system to a back 3, play the likes of Markovic as a LWB (allowing him to develop), move Raheem upfront (which will no doubt improve his goal contribution at AM, and knowledge of forward play, once DS takes back the position full time) and even dropping Gerrard.
If we come through the next few games unscathed, I think 4th place will be well up for grabs, and there will be a lot learning and growing players have done which will help us for next season.
Markovic, Can, Coutinho, Sterling, Sahko, Mingnolet, Can, Henderson have all demonstrated improvement in either their ability or character.
Another parallel - Leverkusen: (stats from statto.com and transfermarkt)
2001/02 - League runners-up with 69 points, behind champions Dortmund (70); Champions League runners-up (lost to Real Madrid); from having a shot at the treble, they eventually lost on all 3 fronts (DFB-Pokal final - lost to Schalke) in a remarkable choke job. "Neverkusen" as they say.
2002/03 - Finished just above relegation with 40 points (Dortmund are now on 16 with 15 games to go...)
2001/02 - scored 77 goals (ranked #1) and conceded 38 (joint #4)
2002/03 - scored 47 goals (joint #6) and conceded 56 (joint #4 from bottom)
I wasn't following them much but was vaguely aware of the contrast in the seasons; digging up the records now, you can see some of the same traits again.
In 2002/03:
- lost their 01/02 top scorer Ballack (17 goals, 8 assists) to Bayern Munich
- lost their 01/02 top creator Ze Roberto (4 goals, 17 assists) to Bayern Munich
- Neuville went from 13 goals in 01/02 (#2 scorer) to 4 goals in 02/03 (and that was still #2 !)
- Ulf Kirsten went from 11 goals (#2 scorer) to just 3 league games and 1 goal in 02/03; I'm not sure if he was injured but he retired at the end of the 02/03 season anyway (36 years old)
- Their back four (Zivkovic, Juan, Placente, Lucio) played 30, 24, 23 and 21 games, while Nowotny played only once (injured I think for the season); so not a really settled back four at that time. Lucio would leave 2 seasons later to join... yep, Bayern Munich.
This is how their season went:
Leverkusen bounced back to finish 3rd the following season.
Dortmund so far:
2001/02 - League runners-up with 69 points, behind champions Dortmund (70); Champions League runners-up (lost to Real Madrid); from having a shot at the treble, they eventually lost on all 3 fronts (DFB-Pokal final - lost to Schalke) in a remarkable choke job. "Neverkusen" as they say.
2002/03 - Finished just above relegation with 40 points (Dortmund are now on 16 with 15 games to go...)
2001/02 - scored 77 goals (ranked #1) and conceded 38 (joint #4)
2002/03 - scored 47 goals (joint #6) and conceded 56 (joint #4 from bottom)
I wasn't following them much but was vaguely aware of the contrast in the seasons; digging up the records now, you can see some of the same traits again.
In 2002/03:
- lost their 01/02 top scorer Ballack (17 goals, 8 assists) to Bayern Munich
- lost their 01/02 top creator Ze Roberto (4 goals, 17 assists) to Bayern Munich
- Neuville went from 13 goals in 01/02 (#2 scorer) to 4 goals in 02/03 (and that was still #2 !)
- Ulf Kirsten went from 11 goals (#2 scorer) to just 3 league games and 1 goal in 02/03; I'm not sure if he was injured but he retired at the end of the 02/03 season anyway (36 years old)
- Their back four (Zivkovic, Juan, Placente, Lucio) played 30, 24, 23 and 21 games, while Nowotny played only once (injured I think for the season); so not a really settled back four at that time. Lucio would leave 2 seasons later to join... yep, Bayern Munich.
This is how their season went:
Leverkusen bounced back to finish 3rd the following season.
Dortmund so far:
Despite how many great players as Ze Germans produce; how much money they generate; how well there teams to do in Europe, their league is shit. They should really fix that model. Every time there is a team doing well they lose their best players to Bayern and are never able to compete consistently. As least in Spain there is 2 teams. How do they put up with that? Monopolies suck for sports.
Guess we unjinxed them then.
Four straight wins - up to 9th position for now, and 8 points from the final CL berth (9 points from 3rd).
The stats you posted above made it look like they were having bad luck.
Maybe it has turned around?
It's amazing – Borussia basically mirror our story of this season, but it took Klopp a bit longer than Rodgers to find a solution. And solution he found was strikingly similar as well – he finally dropped his immobile Italian striker as well as his other "fox in the box" new striker signing and is now simply playing with his fastest player (who used to play exclusively on the flank before then) up top – Aubameyang. Suddenly the style, the threat and the joy has returned – four straight wins and now they beat their arch-rivals Schalke 3:0
Bad luck in the offensive end perhaps, given their chance creation and shot number rankings but low shot accuracy (maybe kind of like our crossbar season). Defensively, those stats were pretty damning though. I watched them maybe twice during that bad spell and they were really awful defensively.
Having Reus back definitely helps; he's scored a goal in every of their last four games. Having scored 16 goals in 18 games, they've scored 12 in 4 now, albeit 3 games were against relegation fodder and only Schalke, whom they beat 3-0 yesterday, are a team in a strong position. So perhaps now they've found the goals up front, the confidence has returned and the pressure is off the defence and they're playing less on eggshells.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
