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Back to 3-4-3?

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rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member
I only watched the extended highlights of the Norwich game, but from I've seen this game seems like a step in the right direction. Last season I thought 3-4-3 suited most of our players better (I even made a list of players who I thought benefit from 3-4-3 as opposed to those who function better in a system with 4 defenders) and I didn't think the problem at the end of last season was that our 3-4-3 was "found out" as a system. I thought it was something else, something psychological rather than tactical.

At the start of this season Rodgers must have had some kind of plan for switching back to a system with 4 defenders (somehow with every new season he keeps trying to build this 4-2-3-1 thing, despite it literally never working once in all of his tenure here – almost have to admire his stubborn determination, even though it might cost him his job); it clearly wasn't working and now he is back in the "I have to save my job" mode, which, judging by our recent history under Rodgers, is a good thing for the team. Despite all the doom and gloom, I wouldn't be surprised if we went on a winning run starting from the next game (and if not, all the Rodgers haters can thank me for a massive jinx later!).

How can we improve if we keep 3-4-3 (or 3-4-1-2 to be more precise) as the basic system for the foreseeable future?

1. Drop Benteke and play Ings together with Sturridge. I like Benteke in a way, but he is too tempting of an outlet and that has sucked the creativity out of our play, just like many of us feared. Use him as an impact sub for now.
2. Get Joe Allen back in the team ASAP. Yes, he doesn't have many fans here, but the fact is that out of all our central midfielders, he is the one best suited for 3-4-3. In this system the 2 CMs simply need to be effective water-carriers – nothing more, nothing less. You don't need a defensive specialist that you need in a 4-3-3 or a playmaker like in a classic 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-2-1. You need 2 players who make short passes accurately, constantly move without the ball and are willing to chase the ball when not in possession. For this particular system, Milner and Allen would be an excellent pairing.
3. Keep Sakho, Can and Lovren exactly where they were in the Norwich game (at LCB, RCB and on the bench respectively). And if one of them gets injured or needs rest, replace them with Gomez rather than Lovren or Toure. Use some bloody common sense, Rodgers.
4. For some games consider playing Ibe in place of Clyne for more attacking penetration. Keep Moreno at LWB, doing what he does best.
5. Go back to playing the pressing game. Having the hard-working and speedy Ings up front will help in this regard, as will Allen in midfield (as opposed to the intermittently lethargic Can or aging Lucas). If everybody in the team presses, then we can afford one (but no more than one at any time) player who doesn't work defensively as much, but constitutes a real attacking threat – someone like Sturridge. Then we might finally start scoring goals.

Thoughts?
 
1. Drop Benteke and play Ings together with Sturridge. I like Benteke in a way, but he is too tempting of an outlet and that has sucked the creativity out of our play, just like many of us feared. Use him as an impact sub for now.


This bit is absolute rubbish. The only reason the players have booted it up to him is because of the massive gap Rodgers has created between him and the rest of the team, even then it hasn't been that much, the times he's actually had players around him, he, and the team have looked good, and built up well. If we go with this formation again, which I'm not against, we should definitely go with Benteke and Ings to start with, and slowly bring Sturridge back.

As for the full backs, I'm all for Moreno and getting the best out of him, I like him as a player and think he has a lot to offer, I also think Clyne could thrive in RWB, he's got pace and purpose, and is a dangerous player going forward. Having actual fullbacks in the wing back positions could make us a little more responsible defensively than we were with Markovic, Ibe, Downing, Sterling and so on in the past (although they all did a solid job), so thats another plus.

In the centre, I'd like to see a backline of Sakho, Skrtel and Gomez, I think that has potential, but I'd imagine we'd be seeing Can there, which is a shame because I'd like to see a Can, Milner, Henderson midfield, but Cans tendency to trot off and let the game go past him could make that a non starter.

I couldn't agree more with point 5, I'm desperate to see our pressing game return, Coutinho and Ings would be massive parts of that, as would Henderson and Milner, but I do understand Can could be a hindrance there, and although I'd like to think it would suit Firmino's game based upon his previous seasons, we've seen little to suggest it happening this season.

Talking of Roberto, where do we fit him in? A striking option? Rotating with Coutinho? It becomes a bit of an issue to fit him in with this formation, knowing Rodgers he'll probably play him at wing back (I shouldn't even joke about that), but it would be a shame to have a formation which makes fitting one of our more exciting summer purchases in difficult.

Seems as the 4-4-2 diamond seems to be a forgotten memory, I'm all for trying this formation again.
 
I would rotate Firmino with Sturridge. I think he is a decent worker by nature, but he is not completely up to speed of the English game yet, so for now he fits in the same "good attacking player who doesn't press" category.
 
So we are a midtable team chasing a Europe League Place (again) and have spent 50 odd millions on Firmino and Benteke so they can be impact subs for us? Thank fuck Swansea and Stoke doesn't have that kind of Money, or they would have distanced us by far.......
 
Rodgers has been frequently castigated for waffling on about tactics etc but a big part of me feels that the fans are owed a proper explanation for how we've ended up with such a random collection of 20-30M players from someone at the club.

Yeah, I think the system we saw against Norwich probably makes the best of our situation.

I agree that Allen would be good if he could get fit and recover his form because we need someone with some kind of short passing game in the middle. When is he back?

I'd stick with Clyne at RB. Ibe is struggling at the moment and doesn't need to be confused with playing RB. Let him play in Europe and the Cup games.
 
So we are a midtable team chasing a Europe League Place (again) and have spent 50 odd millions on Firmino and Benteke so they can be impact subs for us? Thank fuck Swansea and Stoke doesn't have that kind of Money, or they would have distanced us by far.......


I very much hope Firmino will become an essential player for us. But for now, he is not quite ready to be a starter in such an important position as CAM and he is wasted on the wing. Sturridge will need to be eased back gradually too, so I think it's a perfect spot to rotate those two.

As for Benteke, I was not in favor of spending that kind of money on him and I feared in particular that the exorbitant price tag would force Rodgers to give Benteke a more important role in the team than he deserves on merit. He is a good striker, but come on – he is not someone you should be building a whole team around and forcing other good players to change their games to suit him. I think Benteke would have been more useful in a counter-attacking game similar to the way Villa played in the last couple of seasons, but Rodgers inexplicably failed to provide him with a strike partner (at Villa he always had Agbonlahor or Weimann alongside him) and tried to make him into the "pivot" instead, with predictably uninspiring results.

None of this is Benteke's fault; he has been trying his best and had some good moments, but it was a wrong system for him.
 
Ibe will have to move up front. I think he'd make a better forward than Ings or Firmino, because he doesn't hit the ball like a pussy.
 
I think Can is a bit of a disaster at RCB. You could see Norwich targeted him straight away in the second half. It went tits up after a while for him last season.

Is 3 at the back set up to accommodate Sakho? It seems when he plays we usually revert to it.
 
I think Can is a bit of a disaster at RCB. You could see Norwich targeted him straight away in the second half. It went tits up after a while for him last season.

Is 3 at the back set up to accommodate Sakho? It seems when he plays we usually revert to it.

I think he started well there last season, and Norwich didn't create much to say he is a disaster there? However, I agree his form slipped a bit towards the end of last season.
 
I don't get why it is so difficult to just play the diamond.

---------------Mignolet------------

Clyne---Skrtel---Sakho---Moreno

-----------------Can------------

---Milner/Hendo----Coutinho--

--------------Firmino---------

-------Sturridge---Benteke----

- Clyne and Moreno providing the width
- Emre protecting the defence
- Although they are both good players I don't want to see both Hendo and Milner starting in that team as I think we will play better football with both the Brazilians in the starting 11
- Firmino will be quality in that central role behind the strikers
- Any two from Benteke/Sturridge/Ings can play up front depending on form/injuries/opponent

I believe we can beat most teams playing this way. Sadly, Rodgers clearly don't.
 
The fact we're even debating the merits of returning to the failed experiment of 3 at the back shows how utterly the club and manager have messed up since the end of the season.

If it wasn't so serious you'd laugh.

We had the makings of a good squad in May, which just needed some sensible tailoring and a fresh approach. The money we've spent has instead been unbelievably badly focused. It was depressing to witness, like the proverbial slow motion car crash.
 
I don't get why it is so difficult to just play the diamond.

---------------Mignolet------------

Clyne---Skrtel---Sakho---Moreno

-----------------Can------------

---Milner/Hendo----Coutinho--

--------------Firmino---------

-------Sturridge---Benteke----

- Clyne and Moreno providing the width
- Emre protecting the defence
- Although they are both good players I don't want to see both Hendo and Milner starting in that team as I think we will play better football with both the Brazilians in the starting 11
- Firmino will be quality in that central role behind the strikers
- Any two from Benteke/Sturridge/Ings can play up front depending on form/injuries/opponent

I believe we can beat most teams playing this way. Sadly, Rodgers clearly don't.

A few issues.
- Benteke need service from the wings and not from behind (I am not talking about that service!!!). Hence he will be become innefficient in this set up and we should rather use Ings.
- Coutinho is better where you placed Firmino. He can play CM but we loose his creativity there.
- Rodgers prefer Lallana to Firmino, but same problem apply as for Coutinho
- Moreno is to exposed at full back. he will play Sakho weak.
- The midfield doesn't have a "Mascher" who will win the ball back for us, and hence again leave the defence to exposed.
- Clyne will offer nothing forward, hence we need Width on the right.

So if we are to use this system we will have to bench players Worth of 90-100 mill.
 
Fuck off with 3-4-3.. 3-5-2

Square peg round hole shite.. Back to the 90's..

Whist I agree it worked to a degree last season, it was brought in because the new signings did not fit in to our system.. Is that going to be the same that can be said of our signings this season... ? Huge questions have to be asked in that direction...

We will have a silly amount of signings of value on the bench..

3-4-3 won't win you titles or trophies, not in this League.
 
Fuck off with 3-4-3.. 3-5-2

Square peg round hole shite.. Back to the 90's..

Whist I agree it worked to a degree last season, it was brought in because the new signings did not fit in to our system.. Is that going to be the same that can be said of our signings this season... ? Huge questions have to be asked in that direction...

We will have a silly amount of signings of value on the bench..

3-4-3 won't win you titles or trophies, not in this League.

It's so obviously a bit of a punt of a formation after things have gone wrong. It worked for a bit last season but only until teams wised up and then it fell apart spectacularly.

It was a sticking plaster last season. Now it's one covered in yesterday's blood that's fallen off in the shower, and Rodgers is the fucking scrote desperately trying to reattach it.
 
Going back to the 3-5-2 failed system from last year shows the paucity of our tactical thinking and the shambolic recruitment regime where we keep on signings new players without any idea of where or how to deploy them.

The system failed because it was found out. By everyone in the end, all doing the same thing - drawing us in and knocking the ball over the top into the channels where our centrebacks were then exposed one-on-one to a striker, or he held the ball up while our retreating midfielders were left behind by the pace of the opposition flooding into our half.

5 games in to the new season and after ditching the 4-3-3 that BR had hitched his wagon to, we revert back to trying to fit square pegs into round holes to mask over the weaknesses in the squad.

This system is a way of shoehorning the likes of Moreno & Can into the side because it suits them better and it's supposed to address our lack of width with the idea that Benteke can receive more crosses. But it still won't work because our centrebacks aren't good one-on-one and we have a slow midfield. It also doesn't suit Clyne, who is a solid right back but not a wing back nor our more creative players like Firmino or Coutinho who are neutralised. So it's a pig's ear.
 
A few issues.
- Benteke need service from the wings and not from behind (I am not talking about that service!!!). Hence he will be become innefficient in this set up and we should rather use Ings.
- Coutinho is better where you placed Firmino. He can play CM but we loose his creativity there.
- Rodgers prefer Lallana to Firmino, but same problem apply as for Coutinho
- Moreno is to exposed at full back. he will play Sakho weak.
- The midfield doesn't have a "Mascher" who will win the ball back for us, and hence again leave the defence to exposed.
- Clyne will offer nothing forward, hence we need Width on the right.

So if we are to use this system we will have to bench players Worth of 90-100 mill.


- I think Benteke can be effective with supplies from playing through the middle too, and like I said out of the 3 strikers any 2 can play
- Agree Coutinho is best behind strikers but we have to play Firmino there and I think Coutinho can do a good enough job in the middle and be the link between defence and attack which seems like what we are lacking at the moment
- If Emre is instructed to be disciplined and primarily protect the back four I think we'll be ok defensively
- Disagree about Clyne, he is an attacking full back so he and Moreno will provide plenty of width

Rodgers have tried countless formations and every single one have failed. We have one winger in the team who is Ibe and he's not ready yet. We also have 3 good strikers and a lot of central attacking players e.g. Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana etc. No doubt for me that Rodgers should play the diamond.
 
Going back to the 3-5-2 failed system from last year shows the paucity of our tactical thinking and the shambolic recruitment regime where we keep on signings new players without any idea of where or how to deploy them.

The system failed because it was found out. By everyone in the end, all doing the same thing - drawing us in and knocking the ball over the top into the channels where our centrebacks were then exposed one-on-one to a striker, or he held the ball up while our retreating midfielders were left behind by the pace of the opposition flooding into our half.

5 games in to the new season and after ditching the 4-3-3 that BR had hitched his wagon to, we revert back to trying to fit square pegs into round holes to mask over the weaknesses in the squad.

This system is a way of shoehorning the likes of Moreno & Can into the side because it suits them better and it's supposed to address our lack of width with the idea that Benteke can receive more crosses. But it still won't work because our centrebacks aren't good one-on-one and we have a slow midfield. It also doesn't suit Clyne, who is a solid right back but not a wing back nor our more creative players like Firmino or Coutinho who are neutralised. So it's a pig's ear.

Spot on.

Rodgers must find a way fitting both Benteke and Sturridge in so a few other players will play out of position. He would look like an idiot if he benched Benteke and even more like an idiot if he benched Sturridge or played him out wide so 3-5-2 it is.
 
I think Can is a bit of a disaster at RCB. You could see Norwich targeted him straight away in the second half. It went tits up after a while for him last season.

Is 3 at the back set up to accommodate Sakho? It seems when he plays we usually revert to it.

Agree with you. How anyone thinks he's a CB is beyond me.
 
Rodgers is chancing it again. It won't work long term. I just don't see how everyone fits in, but more to the point I don't think Rodgers does. If prefer this,

Ming

Clyne. Skrtel. Sakho. Gomez

Can. Hendo.

Ibe. Coutinho. Firminio

Studge
 
-------------------Mignolet
Clyne------Gomez------Sakho------Moreno
-------------------Lucas-----------
----------Henderson-----Coutinho------
-------------------Milner--------
-------------Ings---------Sturridge---------

Coutinho as the playmaker. Milner as the attacking midfielder so he can press the opposition early. He is also great making runs into the box.
 
If I was forced to name a best XI from the strange mish mash of players making up our squad I guess I'd go for


Mignolet

Clyne
Gomez
Sakho
Moreno

Can
Henderson
Milner
Coutinho

Firmino
Sturridge

In the diamond. Let Can play almost as the deep lying playmaker à la Alonso. Width from the full backs.
 
I really confused as to why people keep mentioning 'square pegs, round holes' with 3-4-3!

To make sure I am on the right page, let me confirm: the pegs = the players, the holes = the formation.

Right?
 
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