A step too VAR?

[FoxForceFive]

Wrote the bulk of this in the CL thread, then realised it deserves a thread of its own.

VAR far me is too time consuming, too awkwardly designed & is flawed due to its attempt to use the pitch referee as the decision maker.

Everyone loves goal line technology cos it doesn't disrupt the flow of the game. Its inevitable that flow will be interrupted by VAR, but it's almost as if they have designed it to be as time consuming as possible, yet have simultaneously made it less likely to get the correct decision!

There's what, four referees in a room watching that footage? Surely the obvious thing to do is to make decide, & have the outcome of the decision based upon the pitch refs original decision plus their choice having seen the replay.

That way the 50/50 decisions will always be effectively decided by the pitch ref, who has the best feel for the match but no benefit of replays, but the blatantly wrong ones will be overruled by the VAR's as they can use replays.

It won't completely rule out every poor decision, but it'll eradicate almost all of them, the ones that remain would be the grey area ones that still cause arguments regardless, & most importantly, it'd speed the process up, cos last night that was a joke.

I get the idea of the autonomy of the pitch referee, but that's undermined entirely by telling him they think he might have got it wrong & to review it. He's already under immense pressure by his peers who have the benefit of multiple camera angles & replays, so he's more inclined to reverse the decision.

To have a system with potentially five professional reviewers using the system to see what they think, then passing that decision to just one professional to review it again & make a decision is fucking mental.

 

[6TimesaRed]

It will be designed to take time to appease broadcasters, So they can use that time to go to a quick commercial break...

Inevitable really..

Betting companies would be tripping over themselves to be at the front of the queue..

That's my take anyway..

 

[MomoWASright]

I’m against it. I still think goal line technology is still not ready to be used. Not because it doesn’t work as it obviously does. My issue with it that it cannot be used in all the leagues.

You can have (hypothetical FA cup ties) Man City v burton using the technology yet Newport v us wouldn’t. How is that fair?

Anyway VAR is shit. Too ponderous and still comes out with the wrong decisions.

 

[6TimesaRed]

I don't get why the referee needs to see it .

It's not as if he sees a lineman's decision that's overrules his..

Advise the referee of his error and deal with it as you would a linesman decision

 

[Dreambeliever]

All for it. Just needs tweaking. Works perfectly in Rugby.

It’s more about the application than the concept for me.

 

[Peatcheo]

The Casemiro penalty that Real Madrid got via VAR recently was shocking.

 

[MomoWASright]

All for it. Just needs tweaking. Works perfectly in Rugby.

It’s more about the application than the concept for me.

It needs a big overhaul just to get it working. Not a tweaking.

It was only meant to be for clear and obvious errors. Not newr enough every decision that’s being made.

 

[mark1975]

It's ridiculous when footage then results in the ref giving a decision like last nights. An obvious non-deliberate, arms by side, ball-to-hand that results in a crucial penalty that wins the game, the tie and also a ludicrous amount of money.

It should have always been an ear-piece to confer with a panel in the studio and then a quick unanimous decision. If they can't decide and it's likely to take longer to discuss then no action should be taken.

 

[Brizzle]

I think VAR is shite and will change the way the game is played. Teams will work out ways to try and game VAR in the same way in cricket you are seeing big trends in different types of wickets/lbws for spinners.

I like goal line technology though - it is pretty simple as no pause is required. If the ball passes the line the ref gets instant feedback. Simple and reduces errors and guesswork on that side of things. Fuck off this screen at the side of the pitch bollocks though.

 

[Insignificance]

In thoery it is ok if it is blatant errors as i.e. offside for a goal, or someone delibarately stopping the ball on the line With a hand or something easy. But god knows that there are too many idiots among the refs, hence there will be a decent amount of idiots being VARs as well. Hence the system is not better than the idiots running it and it should be scrapped on that basis alone.

 

[6TimesaRed]

It should have always been an ear-piece to confer with a panel in the studio and then a quick unanimous decision. If they can't decide and it's likely to take longer to discuss then no action should be taken.

That's exactly how it should be.. but it won't because Broadcaster will see this as an opportunity to boost revenue with commercial breaks and put pressure on UEFA/ FIFA to play the game with new tech their way..

Once UEFA/FIFA see this as revenue stream for them too they will go the way of the broadcasters

TV Pretty much dictates football these days

 

[gkmacca]

I'm just baffled at why a governing body estabishes the MO for something and then, itself, blatantly ignores it. VAR is formally only supposed to intervene to correct obvious errors, not merely debatable ones, and yet it gets used for the latter all the time. It would be welcome if it did what it's supposed to do. It's very unwelcome doing everything else.

 

[Brizzle]

I think they should also consider not releasing or sharing the VAR footage with broadcasters. They are then opening the debate even wider. Completely agree @gkmacca , if something needs more than 1 or 2 looks it surely is no longer 'clear and obvious'

 

[MomoWASright]

I think if they completed a report on their decision it would help us. It’s not a split second decision it is considered. Last night’s decision made no sense.

 

[Mors]

If refs weren't shit we wouldn't need it. Clone Colina and then fuck it off.

 

[gkmacca]

I think they should also consider not releasing or sharing the VAR footage with broadcasters. They are then opening the debate even wider. Completely agree @gkmacca , if something needs more than 1 or 2 looks it surely is no longer 'clear and obvious'

I've actually gone back to look at the official rules a few times since it started to double check, because how it's being used makes no sense at all. It's not there to deal with the incidents pundits watch several times and still don't agree on. For one thing, that takes too long and for another, the intervention is undermining the on pitch officials. It's quite exasperating.

 

[mark1975]

I'm just baffled at why a governing body estabishes the MO for something and then, itself, blatantly ignores it. VAR is formally only supposed to intervene to correct obvious errors, not merely debatable ones, and yet it gets used for the latter all the time. It would be welcome if it did what it's supposed to do. It's very unwelcome doing everything else.

And the problem is the refs use it when they can't make the decision, then watch the footage, then go totally against the rulings anyway. It's a fucking farce.

Refs have my sympathy in the heat of the game and the pace and sheer area they have to cover, you can sort of see why some decisions go awry, but when you've watched footage back and made an obviously bad decision, it just lends to the theory that either personal bias, pressure from the fans or outside influence can sway an opinion, which is everything the sport (with it's so called advances in rules) claims it wants to quash.

 

[Hansern]

I think also that part of the problem is that the rules for handball are so clearly difficult to understand for fans, players and most importantly referees.
That wont change with VAR, and you'll see one incident given and the next week it wont be given.
I read somewhere that the rules regarding handball will be changed this summer, so hopefully that makes it a bit easier for everyone.

VAR is still shite though. Time consuming, wrong decisions and stop/starts the game.
As someone pointed out yesterday. Its like every dodgy handball decision looks worse and more like a penalty in slow motion, then in real life.

 

[mark1975]

I think also that part of the problem is that the rules for handball are so clearly difficult to understand for fans, players and most importantly referees.
That wont change with VAR, and you'll see one incident given and the next week it wont be given.
I read somewhere that the rules regarding handball will be changed this summer, so hopefully that makes it a bit easier for everyone.

VAR is still shite though. Time consuming, wrong decisions and stop/starts the game.
As someone pointed out yesterday. Its like every dodgy handball decision looks worse and more like a penalty in slow motion, then in real life.

Are they that difficult though? If a player is looking away from the ball, his arm by his sides rather than swaying where they may cause an obstruction and the ball is played to hand, I thought it was pretty obviously not an infringement? We've seen them given when a player has his arms at his sides and is obviously shifting his body angle away from the ball to avoid connection. It's non deliberate, there's no deliberate advantage trying to be gained. I think it's fairly cut and dried really.

 

[Hansern]

Are they that difficult though? If a player is looking away from the ball, his arm by his sides rather than swaying where they may cause an obstruction and the ball is played to hand, I thought it was pretty obviously not an infringement? We've seen them given when a player has his arms at his sides and is obviously shifting his body angle away from the ball to avoid connection. It's non deliberate, there's no deliberate advantage trying to be gained. I think it's fairly cut and dried really.

Well, it seems pretty difficult. And yesterday almost every player interviewed, active or retired, said it wasnt a penalty. Yet, the refs seem to think so.
The intentional bit, arms raised in an unnatural position or the distance between the players when the ball hits the arm if a player blocks the shot, it seems like every incident lives its own life and there is no common understanding of what is a penalty and when there isnt one.

 

[mark1975]

Well, it seems pretty difficult. And yesterday almost every player interviewed, active or retired, said it wasnt a penalty. Yet, the refs seem to think so.
The intentional bit, arms raised in an unnatural position or the distance between the players when the ball hits the arm if a player blocks the shot, it seems like every incident lives its own life and there is no common understanding of what is a penalty and when there isnt one.

There's definitely no real clarity on it, as far as the officials go. I just feel it seems pretty cut and dried, the clarity is needed because so many players are penalised against the obvious rulings. I don't get how the officials can be so broad in their interpretations of the laws.

 

[Hansern]

There's definitely no real clarity on it, as far as the officials go. I just feel it seems pretty cut and dried, the clarity is needed because so many players are penalised against the obvious rulings. I don't get how the officials can be so broad in their interpretations of the laws.

Yes, thats what I dont understand either. Which makes it looks like the refs dont really understand it or know how to interpret the laws.

 

[mark1975]

Yes, thats what I dont understand either. Which makes it looks like the refs dont really understand it or know how to interpret the laws.

Which seems to be the crux of the problem, once again!

 

[Brizzle]

I wonder if they will find they need to bring in a margin of error for offside, again a bit like cricket with the 'umpires call' thing e.g. a boot being like 1cm offside probably shouldn't be classed as an obvious error and you can claim that millisecond frames either side mean it is marginal and therefore you stick with whichever decision the ref/lino have already made?

 

[gkmacca]

VAR's rapidly gone the way of car horns. Car horns were originally invented to be used only when there's a serious hazard that needs urgent attention. Nowadays it's used for everything from catching the attention of some bloke on a crowded pavement whom the driver wants to get a wave from, to a form of catharsis when there's a long delay and no one can move. The problem isn't car horns, it's the buffoons who misuse them. There's a sort of paradigm of idiocy that assimilates any useful invention and turns it into a fecking pain in the neck.

It's the pundits who should be complaining about the misuse of VAR, but instead they're just complaining about it as such. Lineker, in particular, is forever moaning about VAR being no good when he's discussing an incident that requires about twenty slo-mo replays. Is he being deliberately obtuse? He likes to think of himself as a budding political theorist, but if he can't manage the mild feat of checking on what VAR is meant to be for and then assessing how it is being applied, I think he'd be well-advised to shut his mouth about the great affairs of state.

 

[Judge Jules]

He'd be well advised to do that anyway. He's rapidly succumbing to the same delusions of grandeur as those which afflict the occasional celeb who gets on to the "Question Time" panel and actually reckons he or she is there for anything more than window-dressing.

 

[gkmacca]

He'd be well advised to do that anyway. He's rapidly succumbing to the same delusions of grandeur as those which afflict the occasional celeb who gets on to the "Question Time" panel and actually reckons he or she is there for anything more than window-dressing.

Exactly. 'Mastermind' footballer Clarke Carlisle springs to mind.

 

[mwake]

Ok, how about taking away the responsibility of VAR decisions from the referee. Shouldn't there be a fourth official in the VAR booth who can quickly make decisions? No need for the referee to run over to the side of the pitch and waste time when there could be an official in the booth. Sure that dilutes the referee responsibilities but that already happens with the linesmen anyways.

But have to agree the PSG handball issues was a farce? I don't understand how that is handball? He turns around, what is he supposed to do with his hands? It clearly wasn't intentional, how did he even know that the guy would even shoot near his arm as he turned around. The rules need to be clarified on that issue.

 

[jexykrodic]

Each manager to be allowed two opportunities per game to make a managers challenge. The ref and assistants settle everything else.

 

[6TimesaRed]

Ok, how about taking away the responsibility of VAR decisions from the referee. Shouldn't there be a fourth official in the VAR booth who can quickly make decisions? No need for the referee to run over to the side of the pitch and waste time when there could be an official in the booth. Sure that dilutes the referee responsibilities but that already happens with the linesmen anyways.

But have to agree the PSG handball issues was a farce? I don't understand how that is handball? He turns around, what is he supposed to do with his hands? It clearly wasn't intentional, how did he even know that the guy would even shoot near his arm as he turned around. The rules need to be clarified on that issue.

Exactly what I was saying .

It should be treated no different than how you would deal with a linesman overruling the referee.

Why the referee has to see the video is beyond me... That definitely needs to be taken out of the equation