• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

A New Concept

Forums Unread posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

the_khl

Guest
Germany implemented back in the year of 2000 a new style of coaching and attacking-mindedness throughout their youth ranks, focusing more on skill-training, movement and attacking-play ahead of running, physical training and defensive structure. Not only did they want to move away from the 'boring' tag German teams in the past had carried they wished to go down a new road in hunt for silverware and a cultural change was implemented all down through their ranks. They were changing their concept so to speak almost from one day to another.

Today around ten years after this big conceptual change of theirs, players like Özil, Khedira, Müller, Marin, Kroos and Boateng has entered the lime light whilst an attacking-minded manager like Low has been appointed to accomodate this new crop of technical adjust and attacking-minded players. Germany has already enjoyed far more succes because of this than I reckon most would've dared even dreaming of and their style of play has been applauded everywhere.

There are other interesting examples as well. During the many years with Morten Olsen at the helm in Denmark a similar conceptualizing has seen the light and a new system has been implemented down through the youth-ranks. Now even the 8-year-olds are beeing instructed to play the preferred attacking-minded 4-3-3 system as well as most of the focus is on developing youngsters attacking skills through play with the ball.

Arsenal has made the transition years back you could argue when they slowly but steadily went from boring-boring-Arsenal to one of the most attacking-minded and mesmerizing teams around to watch. It takes time, it takes a lot of gut and it certainly will cost you a lot of money if you are to be amongst the best and actually are to reap the benefits of a general change in concept but it's worth the try at least. Barca of course is another splendid example of a big club that has made the best of implementing a culture and define their concept on and off the pitch.

This is in my opinion the most important task lying ahead for NESV and everyone around the club. We need to conceptualize our style of play and what kind of players we'd want to develop take Liverpool forward. The current setup and culture has been severely harmed by the fact a lot of key personel has left from Benitez to coaches to physios and scouts. But it's also an invitation to the new owners and the current crop of personel behind the scenes to form a new strategy and form a new concept. The Liverpool way.

In that light I'd keep my fingers crossed that Roy has got what it takes to steer us back into the Champions League-spots so a new, talented and preferable attacking-minded manager can be brought in come Summer ready for a new campaign of Premier League and Champions League with loads of cash beeing freed to improve and consolidate our squad and youth-system. A new concept should then be in place and everyone from the Youth-players to the Veterans to the directors to the tea-ladies should know exactly what we'd want to achieve and how we'd want to achieve it.

Here's hoping.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42718.msg1216099#msg1216099 date=1289479201]
I think we should reinvent football! (again)
[/quote]
I knew the moment I pushed the 'post' button that this little 'ramble' would also work as an invite for cheeky comments on behalf of the 're-inveting' post of mine.

I guess I deserved that.

Anyways there are actually teams who are re-inventing football mind, teams who are not just walking in the path of others before them. Wanting to change the focus and approach of the game.

That is interesting and I'd sure like us to go down that road.
 
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=42718.msg1216105#msg1216105 date=1289479830]
If it's cheap shots and pointless digs you're after, I'm you man!
[/quote]
Haha... You are by a mile the best at it too.
 
I agree in lots of ways, even if what you're describing is fairly abstract and unspecific. It has to be mentioned though: what have Germany won since they made this seismic change of style? They're much more fun to watch, but if you compare their record for the last ten years to their record in previous decades, you might be surprised.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42718.msg1216174#msg1216174 date=1289489029]
Ditto Arsenal, for that matter.
[/quote]

I think that's more to do do with the quality of the first 11 (and league) then as opposed to now.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42718.msg1216174#msg1216174 date=1289489029]
Ditto Arsenal, for that matter.
[/quote]
Good points and obviously it's all about winning trophies. You could argue that Germany albeit not winning any cups of late has been in incredible form for the past three or four major tournaments and are odds-on to reach yet another final come Euro 2012. And I'm positive we'll see many more Müller's and Özil's in a near future. Their supply chain seems to be rather well oiled these days.

Arsenal is a strange one. They are still a very inspiring team to watch and it seems the players knows the system and easily fits in. They'll have to win a trophy sooner or later though to keep their style of play and belief intact.

They have however spend very little compared to their opponents (us included) and as such is now one of the most financially well-run football clubs in England if I'm not mistaken. I do reckon their overall concept and style of play has made it less important to splash big on star names as they'd probably prefer to form and develop their own players.

I'd really love for us to set our own standards and define what kind of style of play, what type of players and managers we'd like to take us onwards from here and then stick to the new plan and concept for years.

For the record: I don't want us to play particularly like Arsenal, Germany or Barca for that matter. In Gerrard we've got one of the best players during the past ten years of world football and he's got a lot of the qualities we as fans like and that'll win us games. Instead of waiting for the new Gerrard perhaps we should try and focus on exactly those abilities he's got and develop those traits in perhaps even more technical gifted players or in a new crop of strikers. It's obviously not that easy but we'd come along way if we were to pin-point the types of player we'd want to unearth at Melwood.

NB Equally important as the type of players we're focusing on is the overall style of play and system mind. There's got to be some kind symbiosis between the two areas evidently.
 
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42718.msg1216189#msg1216189 date=1289490740]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42718.msg1216174#msg1216174 date=1289489029]
Ditto Arsenal, for that matter.
[/quote]
Good points and obviously it's all about winning trophies. You could argue that Germany albeit not winning any cups of late has been in incredible form for the past three or four major tournaments and are odds-on to reach yet another final come Euro 2012. And I'm positive we'll see many more Müller's and Özil's in a near future. Their supply chain seems to be rather well oiled these days.

Arsenal is a strange one. They are still a very inspiring team to watch and it seems the players knows the system and easily fits in. They'll have to win a trophy sooner or later though to keep their style of play and belief intact.

They have however spend very little compared to their opponents (us included) and as such is now one of the most financially well-run football clubs in England if I'm not mistaken. I do reckon their overall concept and style of play has made it less important to splash big on star names as they'd probably prefer to form and develop their own players.

I'd really love for us to set our own standards and define what kind of style of play, what type of players and managers we'd like to take us onwards from here and then stick to the new plan and concept for years.

For the record: I don't want us to play particularly like Arsenal, Germany or Barca for that matter. In Gerrard we've got one of the best players during the past ten years of world football and he's got a lot of the qualities we as fans like and that'll win us games. Instead of waiting for the new Gerrard perhaps we should try and focus on exactly those abilities he's got and develop those traits in perhaps even more technical gifted players or in a new crop of strikers. It's obviously not that easy but we'd come along way if we were to pin-point the types of player we'd want to unearth at Melwood.

NB Equally important as the type of players we're focusing on is the overall style of play and system mind. There's got to be some kind symbiosis between the two areas evidently.
[/quote]

Great Post
 
[quote author=peekay link=topic=42718.msg1216216#msg1216216 date=1289493106]
[quote author=KHL link=topic=42718.msg1216189#msg1216189 date=1289490740]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42718.msg1216174#msg1216174 date=1289489029]
Ditto Arsenal, for that matter.
[/quote]
Good points and obviously it's all about winning trophies. You could argue that Germany albeit not winning any cups of late has been in incredible form for the past three or four major tournaments and are odds-on to reach yet another final come Euro 2012. And I'm positive we'll see many more Müller's and Özil's in a near future. Their supply chain seems to be rather well oiled these days.

Arsenal is a strange one. They are still a very inspiring team to watch and it seems the players knows the system and easily fits in. They'll have to win a trophy sooner or later though to keep their style of play and belief intact.

They have however spend very little compared to their opponents (us included) and as such is now one of the most financially well-run football clubs in England if I'm not mistaken. I do reckon their overall concept and style of play has made it less important to splash big on star names as they'd probably prefer to form and develop their own players.

I'd really love for us to set our own standards and define what kind of style of play, what type of players and managers we'd like to take us onwards from here and then stick to the new plan and concept for years.

For the record: I don't want us to play particularly like Arsenal, Germany or Barca for that matter. In Gerrard we've got one of the best players during the past ten years of world football and he's got a lot of the qualities we as fans like and that'll win us games. Instead of waiting for the new Gerrard perhaps we should try and focus on exactly those abilities he's got and develop those traits in perhaps even more technical gifted players or in a new crop of strikers. It's obviously not that easy but we'd come along way if we were to pin-point the types of player we'd want to unearth at Melwood.

NB Equally important as the type of players we're focusing on is the overall style of play and system mind. There's got to be some kind symbiosis between the two areas evidently.
[/quote]

Great Post
[/quote]
Cheers Peekay much appreciated 🙂
 
This is definitely a direction we need to go in, but we've tried to restart things at grass roots and reserve level so many times. The problem for us is that we're faltering in the league and out of the CL, so while there are flaws stylistically and tactically that need addressing, instilling a mentality and style for the longterm takes time and we need progress tomorrow.

The idea of investing in good, up and coming players is certainly more appealing than what we've seen in recent years, over paying for English AND overseas players. I guess the problem will be in striking a balance and affording ourselves the patience to allow us to succeed, as there are bound to be hurdles (and grumbles) along the way.
 
I don't think it's a coincidence that both Arsenal and Germany won more stuff when they had a more robust, more pragmatic, more 'boring' style of play. Those teams, however dull they were to watch, had an incredible self-belief and will to win - and really it's that that we need to instill/recover. Pass and move is a wonderful idea, and at times marvellous to watch, but the idea that Liverpool of the 70s and 80s produced free-flowing, super-attacking teams is a total myth. We were extremely tough, often defensive, and perfectly capable of winning ugly.

Basically, we don't have to reinvent football. We just have to remember how to win.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42718.msg1216249#msg1216249 date=1289498110]
I don't think it's a coincidence that both Arsenal and Germany won more stuff when they had a more robust, more pragmatic, more 'boring' style of play. Those teams, however dull they were to watch, had an incredible self-belief and will to win - and really it's that that we need to instill/recover. Pass and move is a wonderful idea, and at times marvellous to watch, but the idea that Liverpool of the 70s and 80s produced free-flowing, super-attacking teams is a total myth. We were extremely tough, often defensive, and perfectly capable of winning ugly.

Basically, we don't have to reinvent football. We just have to remember how to win.
[/quote]

We were pretty good at both. in fairness.
 
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42718.msg1216249#msg1216249 date=1289498110]
Pass and move is a wonderful idea, and at times marvellous to watch, but the idea that Liverpool of the 70s and 80s produced free-flowing, super-attacking teams is a total myth. We were extremely tough, often defensive, and perfectly capable of winning ugly. [/quote]

The polarisation of this discussion always comes from this problem.

"Pass and move" is not necessarily the same as "free-flowing" and "super-attacking"

Pass and move is really just keeping the ball on the ground as the preference and training the players to find space to receive the ball when in possession.

You can do that *and* be robust, tough and defensively well drilled and hard to break down
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=42718.msg1216263#msg1216263 date=1289500813]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42718.msg1216249#msg1216249 date=1289498110]
Pass and move is a wonderful idea, and at times marvellous to watch, but the idea that Liverpool of the 70s and 80s produced free-flowing, super-attacking teams is a total myth. We were extremely tough, often defensive, and perfectly capable of winning ugly. [/quote]

The polarisation of this discussion always comes from this problem.

"Pass and move" is not necessarily the same as "free-flowing" and "super-attacking"

Pass and move is really just keeping the ball on the ground as the preference and training the players to find space to receive the ball when in possession.

You can do that *and* be robust, tough and defensively well drilled and hard to break down
[/quote]

I agree totally. I was making the distinction between the way we played in our glory years and the way the current Arsenal and Germany teams play. Both are thrilling to watch (which we often weren't) but neither has actually won anything (which we consistently did).
 
But you were talking about "pass and move", which we used to do.

I was pointing out that "pass and move" isn't the same as "total football", which is the common misunderstanding that the polarisation of these discussions is based on
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=42718.msg1216263#msg1216263 date=1289500813]
[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=42718.msg1216249#msg1216249 date=1289498110]
Pass and move is a wonderful idea, and at times marvellous to watch, but the idea that Liverpool of the 70s and 80s produced free-flowing, super-attacking teams is a total myth. We were extremely tough, often defensive, and perfectly capable of winning ugly. [/quote]

The polarisation of this discussion always comes from this problem.

"Pass and move" is not necessarily the same as "free-flowing" and "super-attacking"

Pass and move is really just keeping the ball on the ground as the preference and training the players to find space to receive the ball when in possession.

You can do that *and* be robust, tough and defensively well drilled and hard to break down
[/quote]

Bang on. Liverpool of the Paisley era were told not to focus on challenging for big punts into the midfield and engage in ping pong, but to make sure they were on the ball when it hit the deck, and try and keep it there. We were by no means the most exciting team in England (which tended to be Spurs or something), but we kept the ball extremely efficiently; as often as not, among the back four and keeper.
 
Some good posts there, esp from BM, Robinhood (waves!), and Doc.

I think that's half the battle, as simplistic as it is, we need to just retain possession better, the whole 'total' football thing is bollocks and beyond us anyway, the main thing is we start to pass it around and stick to the basics.

Football is a difficult game to quantify though because much of 'your' game depends on the opposition, sometimes your forced into a scrappy game, especially if they press you non-stop, look at Arsenal and how they suffer against dogged teams at times.

I'd just like to see us strike a balance. We've defended well for years as a team, but struggled too often to impose ourselves on a game as a team and attack in numbers. I'd like to see us become a bit more dangerous again. We've lost our attacking verve completely since players like Garcia and Alonso have left, even the likes of Bellamy gave us a different approach when needed. Now we struggle with our plan A, a plan B is just a pipe dream, we live in hope game to game that Liverpool will turn up and it's not something you'd bet your house on because the intent and consistency isn't there, nor are the players.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom