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A new approach?

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keniget

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In light of the the rumours surrounding Masher's future and the rather depressing but very much true observations about us looking at a new cycle under Rafa, I thought I'd see what the general opinion is for the way forward.

The 4-2-3-1 system was a proven formula with Alonso and Masher at it's core and only one or two minor tweaks were really required in attack to perfect it. Now that the core has been or will be ripped out, we're staring at a bit of an uncertain future. Lucas does not convince, Aqualini is an unknown quantity and an ageing 🙂() Gerrard is currently required up front quite often due to the paucity of options in attack.

Is it worth shopping for our 4-2-3-1 formation or is it time to start thinking along different lines?

I'm guessing Gerrard and Aquilani wouldn't form the most natural or balanced partnership as both would perhaps have to curb their attacking instincts and we'll need another option anyways, so whichever way we look at it, we'll need to sign another defensive midfielder. So the question is more along the lines of how much of our budget we invest in that player and whether one exists that will make our current system work.

If we can't ensure our midfield is up to the level it was previously, perhaps we need to compensate for this in other areas - like Utd have done for a few years now.

So, 20M midfielder vs 20M attacker / striker? Or rather, 4-4-2 vs 4-2-31 / 4-3-3?
 
The system that Rafa uses works so i would replace masher with a player like Sulley Muntari or someone like this, but i believe we should be getting around £30 million for masher and muntari may cost £15 - £20 million.
But then i still feel we need a bloody good striker who would cost around £20 - £40 million and i don't think we have the money if we don't sell first. 8)
 
Keep the system and try take Diarra and Higuain from Madrid. Is Diarra a realistic option these days? Gago and Alonso seem to playing when i've watched Madrid and Guti is getting a lot of playing time aswel. Would they allow him leave? Doubt he will want to come back the premiership so soon.

Higuain would be a dream signing, can play in a number of positions, score goals, beat a player and is technically able.
 
I don't think Mascher is really replaceable in one sense (for matches against the big teams) because any replacement in the same mould and of a similar quality would inevitably cost almost as much as we'll make from Mascher's sale. In another sense though (for matches against weaker teams - which is, after all, the majority of the games we play) I don't think Mascher's really necessary. So, yes, irrespective of what formation we use, I would ideally spend, say, two-thirds of the money we get for him on a creative attacking player, and the remaining third (or less) on a young, direct replacement. You'd then have to hope that Rafa's tactics and our quality in other areas could let us beat the big teams. Sadly, however, there's no guarantee that all of the money we make on the player would even be available for our transfer fund.
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=36393.msg961219#msg961219 date=1255347362]
Keep the system and try take Diarra and Higuain from Madrid. Is Diarra a realistic option these days? Gago and Alonso seem to playing when i've watched Madrid and Guti is getting a lot of playing time aswel. Would they allow him leave? Doubt he will want to come back the premiership so soon.

Higuain would be a dream signing, can play in a number of positions, score goals, beat a player and is technically able.


[/quote]Yes that may work Higuain is a good play but would he adjust to the prem id like to think so. As for Diarra he is proven but i dont think they would let him leave. Would be nice to get them both for £30 million and as we all know they need the money LOL 8)
 
I think it's all a bit premature to be thinking about changing things with Aquilani not having kicked a ball yet. If, as expected he lives up to his 20m price tag as a more attack-minded replacement for Alonso there'd be no reason to desert the successful 4-2-3-1, given our front four play to the systems strengths and our fullbacks have evolved into potent width-providing attacking forces.

If Aquilani impresses, the loss of Masher could be covered by a like-for-like replacement. Toure and Diarra obviously spring to mind, but others on here have mentioned lesser known prospects in other leagues. The prospect of a wholly revamped engine room in 6 months might (understandably) provoke widespread anxiety, but there's no reason to think that Aquilani might be (potentially more than) an adequate replacement for Xabi and that Mashers replacement might even be a more rounded performer in the majority of (one-sided) premiership games. Let's not forget that the dream partnership of Xabi/masher did not translate into European domination or even a solitary trophy.

Of course, losing an excellent player like Masher is not to be sniffed at, but the likelihood is that we'd probably be handsomely compensated and be able to both buy a decent replacement and put the extra towards much needed cover for Torres.
 
[quote author=Buddha link=topic=36393.msg961229#msg961229 date=1255348167]Let's not forget that the dream partnership of Xabi/masher did not translate into European domination or even a solitary trophy.
[/quote]

I take it as a given that the reason for this was defiencies in other areas - we would've won the title last year with more attacking quality in the squad to cover for Gerrard / Torres and in fairness, we comfortably reached the latter stages of the CL every season.

That said, it might be that a different sort of midfield will help shoulder some of that attacking burden - we just need to find the right balance.
 
I think we should be able to pick up a decent defensive midfielder for around £15M, then I think the priority has to be replacing Riera on the LW.

We'll stick with a variant of the 4-2-3-1.
 
Just one thing, Aquilani isn't THAT offensive (cue humour), at the top his game he could very easily play the role of linking defence and attack through his ability to make up yards and effectively pass. Think there is an understandable confusion on how he plays, he's not a Gerrard/Benayoun type attacker, but not an Alonso style deep-lying playmaker either, he's more "sorta in the middle" of the two, so difficult to compare to other midfielders, the closest that comes to mind is Petit in his Arsenal days.
 
Based on what I've been told about him by relatives in Malta who see a lot more of Serie A than I do, I'd say that's a very good summary.  I suspect that he's not as strong as Petit, but that he's quicker and more skilful.  The fact that he's somewhere in the middle between the two types of player you mention suggests to me that some change will be necessary in the system (if not necessarily the line-up) that we use. What that will be, though, I'm not sure.
 
[quote author=vikas link=topic=36393.msg961251#msg961251 date=1255349583]
Just one thing, Aquilani isn't THAT offensive (cue humour), at the top his game he could very easily play the role of linking defence and attack through his ability to make up yards and effectively pass. Think there is an understandable confusion on how he plays, he's not a Gerrard/Benayoun type attacker, but not an Alonso style deep-lying playmaker either, he's more "sorta in the middle" of the two, so difficult to compare to other midfielders, the closest that comes to mind is Petit in his Arsenal days.
[/quote]

Fair enough, but Petit played alongside Vieira. Without Mascher, who would we have that could offer the same kind of energy and power?
 
If we want to change our approach, I think the defense's ability to function very well without world class mind boggling defensive cover from the midfield will be central to that decision process. With Mascherano and Alonso in front of them our defense was used to that kind of cover. You can count the number of midfield battles they lost in one hand.

With that in mind i think Agger and Carra will have to fight for one spot, while we go out and find ourself a new Sami Hyypia or Thuram at the expense of Martin Skrtl.

If not we should just stick to 4-2-3-1 and hang on to Masher.
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=36393.msg961219#msg961219 date=1255347362]
Keep the system and try take Diarra and Higuain from Madrid. Is Diarra a realistic option these days? Gago and Alonso seem to playing when i've watched Madrid and Guti is getting a lot of playing time aswel. Would they allow him leave? Doubt he will want to come back the premiership so soon.

Higuain would be a dream signing, can play in a number of positions, score goals, beat a player and is technically able.


[/quote]

I'd take one out of Diarra, Rolfes or Miguel Veloso if we had to replace Mascherano.
 
I think if we were to sell Mascherano (or if he wanted to leave) then we should be looking at Essien as a replacement.

He's not exactly the same type of player but can play different types of game. Eg he can hold and do a destroying job like's he's done on Gerrard in the past. He can also drive the game forward against lesser teams.

That could mean the system could stay the same - Essien, Aquilani and Gerrard in a trio, with 1 up top and wingers / midfielders to support.

Essien would just provide more versatility than Mascherano who is effectively a destroyer rather than a creator, although that should not be used to denigrate Mascherano's impact.

As for replacing with Muntari? I'm perplexed by that one. Perhaps I've not seen enough of him.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36393.msg961760#msg961760 date=1255435779]
Essien's the biggest non-starter out there.
[/quote]

elaborate?
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=36393.msg961750#msg961750 date=1255435090]
I think if we were to sell Mascherano (or if he wanted to leave) then we should be looking at Essien as a replacement.

He's not exactly the same type of player but can play different types of game. Eg he can hold and do a destroying job like's he's done on Gerrard in the past. He can also drive the game forward against lesser teams.

That could mean the system could stay the same - Essien, Aquilani and Gerrard in a trio, with 1 up top and wingers / midfielders to support.

Essien would just provide more versatility than Mascherano who is effectively a destroyer rather than a creator, although that should not be used to denigrate Mascherano's impact.

As for replacing with Muntari? I'm perplexed by that one. Perhaps I've not seen enough of him.
[/quote]

I agree with Suiqqles Essien would always be a pipe dream. I presume Muntari is being touted by some as he made a 16million move to Inter last season and Rafa was linked at one stage too if i can remember.
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=36393.msg961762#msg961762 date=1255435923]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36393.msg961760#msg961760 date=1255435779]
Essien's the biggest non-starter out there.
[/quote]

elaborate?
[/quote]

You think we'd be able to sign Essien from Chelsea?
 
[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=36393.msg961762#msg961762 date=1255435923]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=36393.msg961760#msg961760 date=1255435779]
Essien's the biggest non-starter out there.
[/quote]

elaborate?
[/quote]

Chelsea will not sell him, least of all to their title rivals.
 
They are currently banned from signing anyone so it's unlikely they'll let anyone go either if they have any control over the matter
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=36393.msg961815#msg961815 date=1255439891]
They are currently banned from signing anyone so it's unlikely they'll let anyone go either if they have any control over the matter
[/quote]

Did they appeal against it?
 
Masher is only needed against 5-6 teams, really what is the point of him playing against the dredges of the league? are we that worried about Kevin Phillips or something that we need him?

this is the problem, if you're too cautious like that you don't put the shite to the sword like we failed to do last season but if you dont have Masher (or a player like him) the games against the top teams are a bit of a lottery but United showed last season that beating the shite is really important and if you can do it consistantly well then you will win the league regardless of the other results
 
[quote author=Doped White Mouse link=topic=36393.msg961823#msg961823 date=1255440493]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=36393.msg961815#msg961815 date=1255439891]
They are currently banned from signing anyone so it's unlikely they'll let anyone go either if they have any control over the matter
[/quote]

Did they appeal against it?
[/quote]

Don't think so. They probably reckon the squad they've got will see them through. Either that or Roman told them it would have to.
 
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