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Working Class Pirlo

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rurikbird

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Jorginho-640x320.jpg


Name: Jorginho (Jorge Luiz Frello Filho)
Age: 26
Nationality: Italy/Brazil
Position: deep-lying playmaker
Height: 180cm
Stronger foot: right
Contract until: 2020
Current salary: £65K/week
Estimated transfer cost: £40M+

Since my post in the Ruben Neves thread can give a wrong impression that I don't rate Jorginho, I thought I'd clarify what I think about our reported #1 midfield target. First of all, after watching through quite a few archived Napoli games to focus exclusively on Jorginho, I have to admit that I somewhat overestimated the defensive and physical side of his game – it was quickly noticeable that he is rarely the one who puts the foot in to break up attacks, not because he doesn't understand defending (his tactical awareness and positioning is superb), but probably just from him being aware of his own physical limitations. Most of his defensive work is in reading the game, blocking passing lanes and making interceptions and he only tackles if the opponent is careless or as a last resort. Because of this, he must play with 2 physically strong and energetic midfielders on either side to give him protection (in Napoli it's usually Allan and Hamsik/Zielinki) And still, in the toughest away games where Napoli expect to lose the midfield battle (such as Man City or Shakhtar away), Sarri usually plays Diawara instead of him for more solidity and strength in the middle. I've never seen him play in a 2-man midfield, but I'm guessing it can only work alongside a powerful and tall partner like Can.

The good side is that his passing ability is ridiculous and completely fine-tuned towards efficiency, which must have huge appeal to scientifically oriented managers like Sarri or Rafa, who originally signed him. He never makes a beautiful pass just for the sake of it, 9/10 times he is making a safe, short and quick pass that's impossible to intercept and the other 1/10 is a rocket into space upfield that just opens defenses up instantly. Most of his long passing is vertical; unlike Xabi or the aforementioned Ruben Neves he doesn't switch the ball to the flanks as often – instead recycling it with quick passing triangles in the middle (to discourage opponents' pressing) and patiently waiting for the right run from one of his front 3 to put the ball directly into the danger area. Once you understand how it works it's breathtaking: you can just see he's playing a different game to 99% of other CMs and it changes how opponents must defend against Napoli because the they always have to be aware that when the ball is at Jorginho's feet near the centre circle it can be on a striker's foot in front of goal 2 seconds later.

An important feature of his game is how quickly he makes all decisions; where Can or Gini would take 3-4 touches before moving the ball along Jorginho normally makes 2 or 1 and usually knows what he's going to do even before receiving the ball. Even without the ball he is constantly pointing to his teammates and "directing traffic". He is usually the most "switched on" player on the pitch, constantly looking for somebody else's lapse of concentration to exploit. Finally, I like how he seems to be immune to pressure – his touch and ball control is so assured that attempts to tackle him or intercept the ball don't seem to faze him at all; in fact many of his spectacular attacking through-balls get launched just a millisecond before an opponent catches up to him to tackle – he is like an American football quarterback who knows to keep complete concentration on the execution of the pass and the movement of the receiver far ahead even as a 300 pound mass of bone and muscle is bearing down on him ready to inflict pain if he doesn't release the ball in time.

And that's the most important thing to understand about Jorginho – mentally he's really quite tough, having grown up playing on the streets in one of the poorest regions of Brazil and moving to a new country all by himself as a teenager to try to get his family out of poverty. I think his playing style reflects his upbringing – it's understated, designed not to draw attention, to avoid even a hint of showmanship or "style" or anything that is not purely practical. Only if you follow closely you will notice that the skill is sublime and the thinking is razor-sharp. It's possible that had Jorginho been blessed with powerful physique in addition to his mental and technical prowess, we might be talking about him as one of the all-time great midfielders of the game. As it is though, his body frame is simply not powerful enough to win most 1 on 1 duels, his pace and agility are nothing special, so teams who want to make use of his extraordinarily efficient passing have to devise a system that adequately protects him and inevitably make some sacrifices in other areas. Is it worth the trouble? For Napoli it certainly is and Klopp, being tactically quite similar to (and I suspect quite a bit influenced by) Sarri, will know exactly how to make the best use of this player's talents.

If you can't already tell, I'm quite excited by the prospect of having this new attacking weapon in midfield; a player capable of creating chances for our front 3 with more consistency and less risk than before. Let me explain what I mean by less risk: the great thing about vertical passing is that it comes close to solving one of the great tactical problems of modern game: how to attack with speed and penetration while keeping perfect defensive shape. Since in this way of attacking it can take as little as 2 players (the "quarterback" and the "receiver") to create a goal-scoring chance, the rest of the players don't have to distort their shape trying to pull opponents out of position, so the whole construct becomes far more defensively solid. Turns out you don't have to always work the ball into the final third (and risk losing it with half the team out of position defensively) to make the final pass when you have a player capable of producing a quality final pass from a nominally "safe" position on the pitch. Teams know this and that's why in roughly half of the games I watched Jorginho was the one Napoli player who was personally man-marked (!) – not that it helped to stifle his effectiveness all that much. It's a powerful weapon that very few teams possess and in theory, a front 3 like ours with a mercilessly efficient playmaker like Jorginho supplying them from midfield is a perfect antidote against teams playing with a high defensive line (i.e. Man City, Spurs). It should also help us to create more chances against teams who park the bus and control the tempo much better whether we need to speed up or slow down the game.

Last point I want to make: if we do get Jorginho in the summer, he is in no way a Can replacement. His qualities are completely different and the most similar player we have in the squad currently is of course Henderson. Whether this will mean Hendo will lose his place in the first team or that he will move further up in midfield again, with Jorginho now at the base, this is the position and the role in the team that will be affected.


 
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Some background and quotes:
Born in Brazil, Jorginho moved to Italy in 2007 at the age of 15. His family was of Italian descent, with his ancestors coming from Veneto. He soon joined the youth set up at Verona, progressing through the youth side before he got his first chance in senior football in June 2010 – the midfielder was loaned out to Serie C2 side AC Sambonifacese. Jorginho was impressive, scoring one goal and providing ten assists in his 31 appearances in central midfield. That form earned him a return to Verona, where he made his first-team debut in September 2011, coming off the bench against Sassuolo in the 76th minute in Serie B. He helped the club to promotion in 2013 before making his Serie A debut the following season. His first six months in Italy’s top flight saw him find his goalscoring boots. He managed four goals in 71 Serie B games for Verona, but then struck seven in 18 at the start of the 2013/14 campaign.

Unsurprisingly, his form saw bigger clubs in Italy take notice and he joined Napoli in January 2014 for £9million on a four-and-a-half-year deal.
If they wanted a goalscoring midfielder, they’d bought the wrong man.
Jorginho may have found the back of the net twice this campaign, but they are the first league goals he’s scored since he arrived at the Stadio San Paolo.
But his lack of goals doesn’t mean he has disappointed, far from it.

If Italy want a new Andrea Pirlo, they should look no further than the Napoli No8. Indeed, in his first press conference after joining the Partenopei back in 2014, the playmaker spoke about his style and footballing inspirations.
Jorginho said: “I’m a very versatile player, I have covered many midfield roles but my favourite one is the centre-midfield. I like to control the ball and analyse the game. I have grown up as a player watching many champions like Pirlo and Xavi. I have watched them and tried to learn from how they do things.”

Jorginho dictates Napoli’s rhythm from the base of midfield. He is able to unlock a tight opposition defence with a moment of magic, with his ability and vision seeing him place incisive through balls or neat clipped passes over the top of a tight back line. No other Serie A player has made more passes per 90 minutes than his 104.3 so far this season, and last term no player in Europe’s five major leagues could match his average of 110.9 passes per 90. His ability to set the tempo for his side is vital to his team’s commanding performances under Maurizio Sarri.

The 26-year-old is also effective in winning the ball back quickly, displaying keen tactical awareness and a combative nature to break up the play.
That has unsurprisingly made him unpopular, but only against his opponents.
Speaking ahead of Roma’s 1-0 loss against Napoli earlier this season, Radja Nainggolan said: “I hate playing Jorginho. Every time I do, I’m conditionally dead afterwards. Yet, he doesn’t move.”

Despite him being considered one of Serie A’s best midfielders, on the international stage Jorginho is yet to receive recognition. He made his Under-21 debut for Italy in 2012 and in 2014 declared his intention to play for the Azzurri at senior level. But he’s been capped just three times since. His debut came in March 2016 under Antonio Conte and he was named in the provisional 30 for Euro 2016. However, he failed to make the final cut.

Former Italy boss Gian Piero Ventura, meanwhile, was criticised for barely picking Jorginho during the Azzurri’s failed World Cup 2018 qualification campaign. The Napoli midfielder played just twice as Italy missed out on reaching Russia next summer. But if he carries on playing like he is this season, whoever replaces Ventura permanently will surely make him part of the Italy squad for years to come. And it won’t just be on the international stage where he gets his chance to shine. Last summer Arsenal and Bournemouth were said to have bid around £15million for Jorginho. Those offers were turned down but should he leave Napoli this summer, expect him to cost at least three times as much.
 
But on the subject matter. You convey lots of good arguments for him... but....I honestly believe we need to have some steel and height somewhere in midfield.

Next season we'll have keita + possibly a lemar like character. Our 3rd midfielder needs to be able to assist with aerial duels, and show a bit of muscle. Henderson can do it a bit, but ideally he should be slightly more advanced because he can be a dangerous weapon when his confidence is right. So I think he'll be rotated for tougher teams to break down.

I know klopp doesn't like the 3rd midfielder to be a DM, but they surely need to be more defensively minded, if not an outright DM?

At Napoli he's shielded a lot by other players, and I believe you said sometimes dropped in favour of diawara? I don't think we have the personnel to do that. Xabi had masher and hamann when with us and it allowed him to play that role exquisitely.

Should we buy a competent DM I'd be all over jorginho
 
I was just going to post what Fabio has just posted above. We have Keita and if Jorginho is our #1 target that means Klopp intends to continue with Henderson or Can (if he stays) as the more more defensive midfielder (note that Keita has outstanding defensive stats even though he's box to box). Not a happy prospect.
 
But on the subject matter. You convey lots of good arguments for him... but....I honestly believe we need to have some steel and height somewhere in midfield.

Next season we'll have keita + possibly a lemar like character. Our 3rd midfielder needs to be able to assist with aerial duels, and show a bit of muscle. Henderson can do it a bit, but ideally he should be slightly more advanced because he can be a dangerous weapon when his confidence is right. So I think he'll be rotated for tougher teams to break down.

I know klopp doesn't like the 3rd midfielder to be a DM, but they surely need to be more defensively minded, if not an outright DM?

At Napoli he's shielded a lot by other players, and I believe you said sometimes dropped in favour of diawara? I don't think we have the personnel to do that. Xabi had masher and hamann when with us and it allowed him to play that role exquisitely.

Should we buy a competent DM I'd be all over jorginho

That’s a very valid concern and one that I share too - height and strength in midfield is a must, especially in this league, otherwise you turn into Arsenal. That’s why I tried to describe both good and bad sides of the player as I see them without trying to “convince” you either way.

Here’s what I think about how a player like Jorginho can fit into this team:

1. Midfield 2 with Keita is out of question, based on what I’ve seen from both players. And even midfield 2 of Jorginho with anybody is a bit of a question mark for me, since I’ve never seen him on that system. Like Pirlo, I think he needs to be flanked by 2 physically stronger no-nonsense midfielders.

2. Keita can certainly be one of those players and potentially either one of Can (if he stays), Hendo, Gini and probably Grujic and even Ox can be the other. Basically we already have quite a few midfielders with good or excellent athleticism, what we lack in midfield is passing speed and quality that Jorginho provides. If Can does leave, a dream scenario would be buying Milinkovic-Savic as well and starting the season with a brand new midfield 3.

3. “Lemar like character” might not be needed at all if Jorginho is in the team. This is one of the “sacrifices” I was talking about: I don’t think it’s possible to accommodate both a Coutinho-Lemar type and a Jorginho type in one midfield. Any attacking players, whether it’s Lemar or somebody else, will have to compete to be in the front 3. That might not be a bad thing actually - like I said in the OP this would mean that our overall shape is more defensively solid and we can attack effectively while committing less players forward. But then each player of the front 3 will need to pull his weight with goals, because there would be less coming directly from midfield.
 
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Is height really the problem we have had in midfield this season?
That’s a very valid concern and one that I share too - height and strength in midfield is a must, especially in this league, otherwise you turn into Arsenal. That’s why I tried to describe both good and bad sides of the player as I see them without trying to “convince” you either way.

Here’s what I think about how a player like Jorginho can fit into this team:

1. Midfield 2 with Keita is out of question, based on what I’ve seen from both players. And even midfield 2 of Jorginho with anybody is a question mark for me, since I’ve never seen him on that system. Like Pirlo, I think he needs to be flanked by 2 physically stronger no-nonsense midfielders.

2. Keita can be one of those players, and potentially either one of Can (if he stays), Hendo and Gini (and probably Grujic and even Ox) can be the other. Basically we already have an abundance of such players, what we lack is passing speed and quality that Jorginho provides. If Can leaves, an ideal scenario would be buying Milinkovic-Savic as well and starting the season with a brand new midfield 3.

3. “Lemar like character” might not be needed at all if Jorginho is in the team. This is one of the “sacrifices” I was talking about: I don’t think it’s possible to accommodate both a Coutinho-Lemar type and a Jorginho type in one midfield. Any attacking players, whether it’s Lemar or somebody else, will have to compete to be in the front 3. That might not be a bad thing actually - like I said in the OP this would mean that our overall shape is more defensively solid.
Our biggest problem this season has been quality and speed of passing not height. The second problem revolves around the attacking the second ball and that isn't related to height, either.
 
That’s a very valid concern and one that I share too - height and strength in midfield is a must, especially in this league, otherwise you turn into Arsenal. That’s why I tried to describe both good and bad sides of the player as I see them without trying to “convince” you either way.

Here’s what I think about how a player like Jorginho can fit into this team:

1. Midfield 2 with Keita is out of question, based on what I’ve seen from both players. And even midfield 2 of Jorginho with anybody is a question mark for me, since I’ve never seen him on that system. Like Pirlo, I think he needs to be flanked by 2 physically stronger no-nonsense midfielders.

2. Keita can be one of those players, and potentially either one of Can (if he stays), Hendo and Gini (and probably Grujic and even Ox) can be the other. Basically we already have an abundance of such players, what we lack is passing speed and quality that Jorginho provides. If Can leaves, an ideal scenario would be buying Milinkovic-Savic as well and starting the season with a brand new midfield 3.

3. “Lemar like character” might not be needed at all if Jorginho is in the team. This is one of the “sacrifices” I was talking about: I don’t think it’s possible to accommodate both a Coutinho-Lemar type and a Jorginho type in one midfield. Any attacking players, whether it’s Lemar or somebody else, will have to compete to be in the front 3. That might not be a bad thing actually - like I said in the OP this would mean that our overall shape is more defensively solid.

All good points well made

If we do manage to get someone else (like savic) I've no doubt keita and jorginho could work. It would give pressing and creativity in abundance, ruling out the need for someone like Lemar.

Just weary that the calibre of the players we would want (and if we need 2), bump us to over 100m on midfield alone.

Would neves provide a similar type of player to jorginho, but for much less? Obviously more development is needed for neves, but he does seem ridiculously mature for his age
 
All good points well made

If we do manage to get someone else (like savic) I've no doubt keita and jorginho could work. It would give pressing and creativity in abundance, ruling out the need for someone like Lemar.

Just weary that the calibre of the players we would want (and if we need 2), bump us to over 100m on midfield alone.

Would neves provide a similar type of player to jorginho, but for much less? Obviously more development is needed for neves, but he does seem ridiculously mature for his age

I don’t think Neves would cost “much less” than Jorginho - in fact it could be more, considering who his agent is. I like him a lot too and Klopp probably does as well...
 
But on the subject matter. You convey lots of good arguments for him... but....I honestly believe we need to have some steel and height somewhere in midfield.

Next season we'll have keita + possibly a lemar like character. Our 3rd midfielder needs to be able to assist with aerial duels, and show a bit of muscle. Henderson can do it a bit, but ideally he should be slightly more advanced because he can be a dangerous weapon when his confidence is right. So I think he'll be rotated for tougher teams to break down.

I know klopp doesn't like the 3rd midfielder to be a DM, but they surely need to be more defensively minded, if not an outright DM?

At Napoli he's shielded a lot by other players, and I believe you said sometimes dropped in favour of diawara? I don't think we have the personnel to do that. Xabi had masher and hamann when with us and it allowed him to play that role exquisitely.

Should we buy a competent DM I'd be all over jorginho
I would have thought it would been lemar type OR jorginho....no way both. We'd get destroyed a lot away from home. More likely, for example, keita, jorginho and hendo or wijnaldum.
 
Jorginho-640x320.jpg


Name: Jorginho (Jorge Luiz Frello Filho)
Age: 26
Nationality: Italy/Brazil
Position: deep-lying playmaker
Height: 180cm
Stronger foot: right
Contract until: 2020
Current salary: £65K/week
Estimated transfer cost: £40M+

Since my post in the Ruben Neves thread can give a wrong impression that I don't rate Jorginho, I thought I'd clarify what I think about our reported #1 midfield target. First of all, after watching through quite a few archived Napoli games to focus exclusively on Jorginho, I have to admit that I somewhat overestimated the defensive and physical side of his game – it was quickly noticeable that he is rarely the one who puts the foot in to break up attacks, not because he doesn't understand defending (his tactical awareness and positioning is superb), but probably just from him being aware of his own physical limitations. Most of his defensive work is in reading the game, blocking passing lanes and making interceptions and he only tackles if the opponent is careless or as a last resort. Because of this, he must play with 2 physically strong and energetic midfielders on either side to give him protection (in Napoli it's usually Allan and Hamsik/Zielinki) And still, in the toughest away games where Napoli expect to lose the midfield battle (such as Man City or Shakhtar away), Sarri usually plays Diawara instead of him for more solidity and strength in the middle. I've never seen him play in a 2-man midfield, but I'm guessing it can only work alongside a powerful and tall partner like Can.

The good side is that his passing ability is ridiculous and completely fine-tuned towards efficiency, which must have huge appeal to scientifically oriented managers like Sarri or Rafa, who originally signed him. He never makes a beautiful pass just for the sake of it, 9/10 times he is making a safe, short and quick pass that's impossible to intercept and the other 1/10 is a rocket into space upfield that just opens defenses up instantly. Most of his long passing is vertical; unlike Xabi or the aforementioned Ruben Neves he doesn't switch the ball to the flanks as often – instead recycling it with quick passing triangles in the middle (to discourage opponents' pressing) and patiently waiting for the right run from one of his front 3 to put the ball directly into the danger area. Once you understand how it works it's breathtaking: you can just see he's playing a different game to 99% of other CMs and it changes how opponents must defend against Napoli because the they always have to be aware that when the ball is at Jorginho's feet near the centre circle it can be on a striker's foot in front of goal 2 seconds later.

An important feature of his game is how quickly he makes all decisions; where Can or Gini would take 3-4 touches before moving the ball along Jorginho normally makes 2 or 1 and usually knows what he's going to do even before receiving the ball. Even without the ball he is constantly pointing to his teammates and "directing traffic". He is usually the most "switched on" player on the pitch, constantly looking for somebody else's lapse of concentration to exploit. Finally, I like how he seems to be immune to pressure – his touch and ball control is so assured that attempts to tackle him or intercept the ball don't seem to faze him at all; in fact many of his spectacular attacking through-balls get launched just a millisecond before an opponent catches up to him to tackle – he is like an American football quarterback who knows to keep complete concentration on the execution of the pass and the movement of the receiver far ahead even as a 300 pound mass of bone and muscle is bearing down on him ready to inflict pain if he doesn't release the ball in time.

And that's the most important thing to understand about Jorginho – mentally he's really quite tough, having grown up playing on the streets in one of the poorest regions of Brazil and moving to a new country all by himself as a teenager to try to get his family out of poverty. I think his playing style reflects his upbringing – it's understated, designed not to draw attention, to avoid even a hint of showmanship or "style" or anything that is not purely practical. Only if you follow closely you will notice that the skill is sublime and the thinking is razor-sharp. It's possible that had Jorginho been blessed with powerful physique in addition to his mental and technical prowess, we might be talking about him as one of the all-time great midfielders of the game. As it is though, his body frame is simply not powerful enough to win most 1 on 1 duels, his pace and agility are nothing special, so teams who want to make use of his extraordinarily efficient passing have to devise a system that adequately protects him and inevitably make some sacrifices in other areas. Is it worth the trouble? For Napoli it certainly is and Klopp, being tactically quite similar to (and I suspect quite a bit influenced by) Sarri, will know exactly how to make the best use of this player's talents.

If you can't already tell, I'm quite excited by the prospect of having this new attacking weapon in midfield; a player capable of creating chances for our front 3 with more consistency and less risk than before. Let me explain what I mean by less risk: the great thing about vertical passing is that it comes close to solving one of the great tactical problems of modern game: how to attack with speed and penetration while keeping perfect defensive shape. Since in this way of attacking it can take as little as 2 players (the "quarterback" and the "receiver") to create a goal-scoring chance, the rest of the players don't have to distort their shape trying to pull opponents out of position, so the whole construct becomes far more defensively solid. Turns out you don't have to always work the ball into the final third (and risk losing it with half the team out of position defensively) to make the final pass when you have a player capable of producing a quality final pass from a nominally "safe" position on the pitch. Teams know this and that's why in roughly half of the games I watched Jorginho was the one Napoli player who was personally man-marked (!) – not that it helped to stifle his effectiveness all that much. It's a powerful weapon that very few teams possess and in theory, a front 3 like ours with a mercilessly efficient playmaker like Jorginho supplying them from midfield is a perfect antidote against teams playing with a high defensive line (i.e. Man City, Spurs). It should also help us to create more chances against teams who park the bus and control the tempo much better whether we need to speed up or slow down the game.

Last point I want to make: if we do get Jorginho in the summer, he is in no way a Can replacement. His qualities are completely different and the most similar player we have in the squad currently is of course Henderson. Whether this will mean Hendo will lose his place in the first team or that he will move further up in midfield again, with Jorginho now at the base, this is the position and the role in the team that will be affected.




Not sure why the club has not hired Rurikbird as a scout yet. Would be a solid use of funds.


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It’s not just being there, it’s the detailed analysis of why it can work that is mighty impressive.

Nothing against the Count.


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Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
😉
 
We need a few Brazilians in. If no other reason we need to keep Firmino happy. Jorginho look to find the key passes in narrow spaces according to the brilliant post and the youtube clip. We often meet these narrow spaces. I will welcome this guy as a good alternative to offensive slot in midfield.
 
Some talk and rumours about Jorginho not being our top target, but that we’re after Ndidi.

I think he’d be a great player for us.
Leicester would command a massive fee mind.
 
Some talk and rumours about Jorginho not being our top target, but that we’re after Ndidi.

I think he’d be a great player for us.
Leicester would command a massive fee mind.

Probably a potential Can replacement.

Meanwhile, Juve's Marotta on Can:
We are periodically pointed to as a club that buys players. We have a squad suited to three tournaments and it meets our needs.

We’re ready to take any opportunities, I won’t deny we are concentrated on Emre Can and awaiting his response. That is our primary objective. If there is a negative response, we’ll move our attention on to other players.

Pretty much confirms what we already know: no decision has been made yet. Can has the same strategy as Ozil – play as well as he can until the end of the season and then sit down and look at all options and decide. Takes some balls to make 2 great clubs wait for you, but that's what he does.
 
Probably a potential Can replacement.

Meanwhile, Juve's Marotta on Can:


Pretty much confirms what we already know: no decision has been made yet. Can has the same strategy as Ozil – play as well as he can until the end of the season and then sit down and look at all options and decide. Takes some balls to make 2 great clubs wait for you, but that's what he does.

But didn't Özil just sign a New contract With Arsenal? Hence it seem to me that he wanted to see if he got sold in the January window, and when Things panned out as they did he used the Sanchez deal to get himself a monster contract With Arsenal which he would not have got anywhere else.
 
The thread title.is so good I didn't realise it was a pun until someone highlighted it

I'm a bit dense you see
 
But didn't Özil just sign a New contract With Arsenal? Hence it seem to me that he wanted to see if he got sold in the January window, and when Things panned out as they did he used the Sanchez deal to get himself a monster contract With Arsenal which he would not have got anywhere else.

Exactly, so I think Can will get a pretty nice contract and signing bonus as well, either here or at Juve. His only risk with this strategy is a long-term injury, but he was willing to take that risk.

And fair play to him, his performances of late have been generally good and he certainly didn’t look like he was “saving himself” by pulling out of tackles or anything like that.
 
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