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Thiago - The real deal

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Just move him a bit further forward and let Fabs and Hendo do the dirty work and he will be all fine.

And Milner the last two games? Just the bite and leadership we have been lacking. Total transformation of the attitude and grit in the team.
 
I think the combination of Gini and Thiago works quite well, and I cannot help thinking that Thiago playing with Gini is like what it would be like to see him play with his dad, over the years while watching Gini I have often thought that his role and the way he plays is very much like the role Thiago's dad had in the 94 Brazil team - do you all remember Mazinho, Gini kind of plays just like him.
 
Starting to fit in. Injury held him back for sure but he's fully up to speed now and Gini seems to play better alongside him as well..either that the Barca thing has improved Gini's confidence.
 

[article]It has been one of the most curious themes of Liverpool's stuttering start to 2021. Why is Thiago, the man who was supposed to bring more guile and craft to the final third, instead spending so much of his time hacking down opponents?

Since his return to the Liverpool side on January 4 no-one in the Premier League has fouled more frequently and the gap between Thiago in "first" and those behind him is dramatic.
Even Ashley Barnes, the Burnley striker who sometimes gives the impression he has wasted his afternoon if he hasn't engaged in a running battle with an opposing center back, has more than 50 percent fewer tickings off from the referee.

Indeed the table below, counting up fouls in 2021, might suggest that Liverpool didn't sign Thiago, a cultured playmaker from the Bundesliga, but rather a robust enforcer from a Third Division side in the 1970s.

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Among that list Thiago is a curious presence. He is not alone in that regard, since when has Lookman been involved in so much rough and tumble, but the Spaniard's presence is still the most interesting of all. This is a list largely populated with defensive midfielders, center backs and the sort of forwards who are often vying with center backs in aerial duels. There is no other player on this list who really approximates the role one would expect Thiago to be playing in Liverpool, even Mason Mount is as much a high energy presser as he is a playmaker.

This season the 29-year-old has already bettered his 2019-20 Bundesliga foul count in 10 Premier League matches. Having never previously averaged more than two fouls per 90 in any domestic league season where he played over 500 minutes, Thiago is on course for three per 90 in England.

The simple answer is perhaps the most unlikely, that Thiago is somehow struggling to grasp the pace of the Premier League and that his game does not suit Liverpool's. It is already an argument being trotted out by former players and pundits such as Dietmar Hammann, who argued that the Spaniard's possession-first style of play was an ill fit for his new team, and Michael Owen.

"I just don't feel like he's that he's that man at the moment that's offering something," Owen told Optus Sports. "Is it that he doesn't really fit into this team or has he just come in at a bad moment? We'll see but there's something not quite right."

That he is fouling so much would be grist to that mill yet by all accounts when Liverpool have the ball Thiago is doing plenty of what he was brought to do. According to fbref.com only Pablo Hernandez averages more progressive passes, those that move the ball at least 10 yards closer to the opponents' goal, per 90 than the Spaniard. Opta tracks his chances created and expected assists as broadly similar this campaign to what they were last time out in the Bundesliga; that might not be at quite the same heights he hit in earlier year with Bayern but for a player in a new league, who did not have any pre-season with his new team-mates whose recent months have been addled by injuries it is a rather solid start.

So if he is hitting reasonable expectations with the ball why the struggle without it? Well for one thing there is plenty he is getting right when the opposition has possession. He may lead his Premier League contemporaries for fouls in 2021 but he is also third in the top flight for tackles, 12th for interceptions and 10th for ball recoveries. That points to the more fundamental truth about Thiago in his first season at Liverpool. He is not playing the role he was bought for.

He had shown significant growth in his defensive work in his final season at Bayern, on the arrival of his new signing Jurgen Klopp praised Thiago for having the "most steals, ball recoveries and all these kinds of things" in the Bundesliga but only after emphasizing that the No.6 was there to offer "incredible vision" and create for his team-mates. Instead, when he has been casting his eye across the pitch it has not been for the attackers ahead of him but the defenders behind him.

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With no Jordan Henderson to anchor the midfield, let alone Fabinho, the responsibility has fallen on Thiago to protect the backline. It is hardly as if he is protecting Virgil van Dijk and Joe Gomez either, instead he has been shielding one or perhaps two redeployed midfielders or a rookie center back in ever changing partnerships. Meanwhile while Andrew Robertson and Trent Alexander-Arnold have tempered their attacking instincts to an extent the graphic above should serve as a reminder that Liverpool need their two full-backs on the front foot

In these circumstances would you not feel compelled to make the foul when you see an opponent breaking into the last third if you were in Thiago's position? That is where a great many of the free-kicks he has conceded have come from, a calculated risk that it is better to risk the yellow card high up the pitch than allow an attack on a cobbled-together defence. Notably of those 21 fouls he has made since the turn of the year just three have come in the defensive third of the pitch.

And so for Liverpool the solution is as simple as it is unreachable. All they need to stop Thiago fouling is the same thing they need to get Alexander-Arnold back to something approximating his best form, to unlock their attack and rebalance their midfield. Add a fully fit Virgil van Dijk and Joe Gomez to this team, perhaps even just one of them and Fabinho, Henderson and Georginio Wijnaldum can get back to doing what they do best.

Then Thiago can do what he is supposed to, bringing those finishing touches to Liverpool attacks rather than opposition counters.[/article]
 
An excellent article with some great stats, including :

He may lead his Premier League contemporaries for fouls in 2021 (though per 90 minutes Ashley Barnes is well ahead - just for clarification !) however he is also (bearing in mind the majority of other players may have up to twice the number of games) :

3rd in the PL for tackles
12th for interceptions
10th for ball recoveries
2nd for progressive passes, those that move the ball at least 10 yards closer to the opponents' goal, per 90 than the Spaniard

That points to the more fundamental truth about Thiago in his first season at Liverpool. He is not playing the role he was bought for. With no Jordan Henderson to anchor the midfield, let alone Fabinho, the responsibility has fallen on Thiago to protect the backline.

He is also a player in a new league, who did not have any pre-season with his new teammates and whose recent months have been addled by injuries (and Covid).
 
There we go. Proof he's utter shite.
When the other team has the ball he is a liability. The opposite of how our midfield has worked.

IIRC only you and I were unhappy with him as a prospective signing.. And we are the ones saying Dreamy needs to be banned for us to start to heal. Its really all on the mods at this point.
 
When the other team has the ball he is a liability. The opposite of how our midfield has worked.

IIRC only you and I were unhappy with him as a prospective signing.. And we are the ones saying Dreamy needs to be banned for us to start to heal. Its really all on the mods at this point.

3rd in the PL for tackles
12th for interceptions
10th for ball recoveries

Yeah utter liability when the opposition have the ball. Fuck me.
 
His tackling is rash, he's slow as fuck and on the ball he does fuck all. The only game he's looked good in was Chelsea but that was against ten men.
 
3rd in the PL for tackles
12th for interceptions
10th for ball recoveries

Yeah utter liability when the opposition have the ball. Fuck me.
Stats often hide the truth. Often players with a lot of interceptions and tackles are liabilities defensively because they are constantly gambling instead of playing percentages (this is true in many sports). He can be skipped past way too easily and tackles poorly a lot resulting in fouls galore. We now have two of those in our back 6 consistently. He is definitely a liability when the other team has the ball.

Somewhat like Lucas during his awful stretches when the numbers were still there.
 
3rd in the PL for tackles
12th for interceptions
10th for ball recoveries

Yeah utter liability when the opposition have the ball. Fuck me.

Mate, you can quote all the stats you want, people can see with their own eyes that he's giving away unnecessary fouls, he's had zero impact on goals and our midfield is wide open when he plays. He was arguably at least partly at fault for two goals today. He's not doing too well. He's clearly a good player, but he's not adapted to our system well and he's become a bit of a liability.

So stats, as per, only tell part of the story. Selective at best.
 
Stats often hide the truth. Often players with a lot of interceptions are liabilities defensively because they are constantly gambling instead of playing percentage. He can be skipped past in a whim and tackles poorly often enough resulting in fouls galore. We now have two of those in our back 6 consistently. He is definitel
And they often illustrate the truth. He is clearly an asset (as he was in the BL) at both ends. You and a few others however have focused your frustrations on him, despite the evidence to the contrary, the turmoil within the team from injuries, out of position players ... and a forward line that is in desperate need of a return to form.
 
And they often illustrate the truth. He is clearly an asset (as he was in the BL) at both ends. You and a few others however have focused your frustrations on him, despite the evidence to the contrary, the turmoil within the team from injuries, out of position players ... and a forward line that is in desperate need of a return to form.
Those stats don't tell you who is good defensively...Maguire is 4th in interceptions. You won't find any of the best defenders in the top 10 of interceptions in PL history. Similar for tackles... Lucas Leiva is 2nd all time.

One of the ways our team was great was sacrificing invention from midfeield to cover the all out attack from our fullbacks. Thiago is the opposite of that... and it may work in time, but it will be because others cover him, like we've done with TAA. Will doing it with both be possible....

It has only clicked with Thiago in one game... when he was furthest forward in midfield. You can ignore whats in front of your eyes all you want but its been many weeks of me hoping what I was seeing wasn't true and now its time to let it out... He isn't capable enough defensively in this league. This isn't new... Haavertz, Timo, Jorginho and many other fail to adapt their game or just don't have the physical tools to play the same way in other leagues as they do in this one. And he is 29, so it won't get better.
 
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Those stats don't tell you who is good defensively...Maguire is 4th in interceptions. You won't find any of the best defenders in the top 10 of interceptions in PL history. Similar for tackles... Lucas Leiva is 2nd all time.

One of the ways our team was great was sacrificing invention from midfeield to cover the all out attack from our fullbacks. Thiago is the opposite of that... and it may work in time, but it will be because others cover him, like we've done with TAA. Will doing it with both be possible....

It has only clicked with Thiago in one game... when he was furthest forward in midfield. You can ignore whats in front of your eyes all you want but its been many weeks of me hoping what I was seeing wasn't true and now its time to let it out... He isn't capable enough defensively in this league. This isn't new... Haavertz, Timo, Jorginho and many other fail to adapt their game or just don't have the physical tools to play the same way in other leagues as they do in this one. And he is 29, so it won't get better.
Well like it or not Maguire is one of the better defenders in the PL so that's a strange stat to quote. And I'm not sure why you are using Havertz, Timo, Jorginho as examples. Havartz having just arrived and been misused by Lampard, Jorginho is a DM and Timo? A centre forward?!

You are seemingly focused on one aspect of his game, tackling, the fact the other stats are all indicative of an excellent player in attack and defence is being dismissed on the basis of that one fouls stat (and the one that is probably the easiest to train out of him too). I find that more than a little strange and a case of fans looking for a scapegoat for our recent ails.

Let's throw in Hendo (all Hendo's stats are from our title winning 19/20 season since it would be unfair to use his stats as a CB this season) and Gini (20/21) for comparison to promulgate this scapegoat theory of mine.

Successful tackles per match :
Hendo 2.1 (fouls - 1.0)
Thiago 2.3 (fouls - 2.4. Interesting fact : he is making far far more tackles in our defensive ⅓ than in any of his 7 seasons at Bayern. One can assume indicative of playing far more defensively, something that if Hendo and Fabs were in their natural positions, wouldn't be happening)
Gini : 0.8 (fouls - 0.5, 1.4 in the CL)

Interceptions (because we are all about winning the ball back - no matter how much you want to dismiss this stat):
Hendo 1.0
Thiago 1.8
Gini : 0.8 (1.0 in the CL)

It's quite funny that often the debate (pre Thiago) on 6CM centred around how slow and predictable our build up play was unless we were playing on the counter, and yet somehow that is now Thiago's fault.
Debates were often about how we needed a CM who could carry/progress the ball forward (Thiago 2nd in the PL with progressive passing and an ave. of 5.6 successful long balls per game), who could hold on to the ball (Thiago ave. 0.7 dispossessed per game in the PL) and dribble forward (ave. 1.5 a game - that is superb for a CM).

So let's look at the attacking and possession aspects of their games :

Successful Dribbles
Hendo 0.6 (drops to 0.2 in CL)
Thiago 1.5
Gini 0.8 (1.2 in the CL)

Dispossessed
Hendo 0.2
Thiago 0.7
Gini 0.8 (1.0 in the CL)

Passing (Successful Long Balls over 10m)
Hendo 4.2
Thiago 5.6
Gini 1.3 (0.6 in the CL)

Passing (ave. number & completion rate)
Hendo 61.9 & 84.5%
Thiago 72.7 & 89.8%
Gini 49.1 & 91.4%

So people can say that stats don't tell the whole truth, which is true, but in lieu of actually having a team of players playing in their natural positions, on which to judge, those above are definitely indicative of a player that adds the variation to our tactics that we've been screaming out for, as more and more teams have figured out how to effectively block TAA and Robbo.
Added to which previously our game was either wide to those two or counter-attack, we had absolutely no-one capable of attacking through the centre (arguably Keita but then he's never fit. Shaq often MIA and Ox. has nothing else to his game) so clearly Klopp has brought in Thiago to do just that and the stats say that is exactly what he's doing.

I agree conversion to goals hasn't manifested however when our forwards are so clearly miles off form how much of that is down to Thiago and how much to the malfunctioning of the team due to injuries and square pegs in round holes? Time will tell.
 
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The team is all out of shape with no balance, hard to judge any one. It was wrong to praise him after a few games and its wrong to write him off as being shit after a few games too.
 
But he has been shit for the past few games. Even his passes are slow. He has to curl everything with the outside of his boot. It's all slow motion
 
Mate, you can quote all the stats you want, people can see with their own eyes that he's giving away unnecessary fouls, he's had zero impact on goals and our midfield is wide open when he plays. He was arguably at least partly at fault for two goals today. He's not doing too well. He's clearly a good player, but he's not adapted to our system well and he's become a bit of a liability.

So stats, as per, only tell part of the story. Selective at best.

Thiago is a walking red card. I've been really disappointed with him lately. Lack of discipline for a player of his experience is alarming.
 
Well like it or not Maguire is one of the better defenders in the PL so that's a strange stat to quote. And I'm not sure why you are using Havertz, Timo, Jorginho as examples. Havartz having just arrived and been misused by Lampard, Jorginho is a DM and Timo? A centre forward?!

You are seemingly focused on one aspect of his game, tackling, the fact the other stats are all indicative of an excellent player in attack and defence is being dismissed on the basis of that one fouls stat (and the one that is probably the easiest to train out of him too). I find that more than a little strange and a case of fans looking for a scapegoat for our recent ails.

Let's throw in Hendo (all Hendo's stats are from our title winning 19/20 season since it would be unfair to use his stats as a CB this season) and Gini (20/21) for comparison to promulgate this scapegoat theory of mine.

Successful tackles per match :
Hendo 2.1 (fouls - 1.0)
Thiago 2.3 (fouls - 2.4. Interesting fact : he is making far far more tackles in our defensive ⅓ than in any of his 7 seasons at Bayern. One can assume indicative of playing far more defensively, something that if Hendo and Fabs were in their natural positions, wouldn't be happening)
Gini : 0.8 (fouls - 0.5, 1.4 in the CL)

Interceptions (because we are all about winning the ball back - no matter how much you want to dismiss this stat):
Hendo 1.0
Thiago 1.8
Gini : 0.8 (1.0 in the CL)

It's quite funny that often the debate (pre Thiago) on 6CM centred around how slow and predictable our build up play was unless we were playing on the counter, and yet somehow that is now Thiago's fault.
Debates were often about how we needed a CM who could carry/progress the ball forward (Thiago 2nd in the PL with progressive passing and an ave. of 5.6 successful long balls per game), who could hold on to the ball (Thiago ave. 0.7 dispossessed per game in the PL) and dribble forward (ave. 1.5 a game - that is superb for a CM).

So let's look at the attacking and possession aspects of their games :

Successful Dribbles
Hendo 0.6 (drops to 0.2 in CL)
Thiago 1.5
Gini 0.8 (1.2 in the CL)

Dispossessed
Hendo 0.2
Thiago 0.7
Gini 0.8 (1.0 in the CL)

Passing (Successful Long Balls over 10m)
Hendo 4.2
Thiago 5.6
Gini 1.3 (0.6 in the CL)

Passing (ave. number & completion rate)
Hendo 61.9 & 84.5%
Thiago 72.7 & 89.8%
Gini 49.1 & 91.4%

So people can say that stats don't tell the whole truth, which is true, but in lieu of actually having a team of players playing in their natural positions, on which to judge, those above are definitely indicative of a player that adds the variation to our tactics that we've been screaming out for, as more and more teams have figured out how to effectively block TAA and Robbo.
Added to which previously our game was either wide to those two or counter-attack, we had absolutely no-one capable of attacking through the centre (arguably Keita but then he's never fit. Shaq often MIA and Ox. has nothing else to his game) so clearly Klopp has brought in Thiago to do just that and the stats say that is exactly what he's doing.

I agree conversion to goals hasn't manifested however when our forwards are so clearly miles off form how much of that is down to Thiago and how much to the malfunctioning of the team due to injuries and square pegs in round holes? Time will tell.

Hey Froggy, how much football have you played?

I think you proved me right on stats... Thiago has more tackles and interceptions than Hendo and Gini. Do you think Thiago is a better defender than them? And agree to differ on Maguire.

Thiago will be great when we have Virgil and hopefully we can defend almost as good without him as with him. And then his defensive capabilities will actually be an asset like it was for bayern.

To be morbid, maybe he could be a false 9 who scores and moves less than Bobby but is still effective until the necessary components are in place for Thiago to be an asset in midfield again.
 
By the way if anyone can be bothered here's a decent comparison (pre-transfer) of Thiago to out other midfielders. It's also noticeable how highly Keita rates - if only the bugger could stay fit !

I checked on another website (FBref.com) and Thiago's stats in the PL roughly mirror those in Germany so far.

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/analysis/liverpool-sign-thiago-data-analysis-statistics

@Frogfish - with regards to Keita - I don't think anyone can have any doubts about how good he is, of the few times he has played for us the only bad performance was against Villa this season but that was along with all the rest of the players who had a shocker. But when he plays he is one of our best midfielders without doubt - I just think most of us don't rate him because he is never available ... like fucking never never. For 50M+ you think he would be available, I can forgive Matip's record because he was a free transfer but when we spend 50M+ on a player I expect them to play in 80% of matches per season.
 
I dont think there is any question about his quality. That has been on evident display.

The question has been about his impact on our play - which has been negligible, to be generous - and whether it is due to his suitability for how we play or if it stems from a weakening of our team and its style by the myriad of injuries throughout the squad.
 
I dont think there is any question about his quality. That has been on evident display.

The question has been about his impact on our play - which has been negligible, to be generous - and whether it is due to his suitability for how we play or if it stems from a weakening of our team and its style by the myriad of injuries throughout the squad.

Bang on.
 
@Frogfish - with regards to Keita - I don't think anyone can have any doubts about how good he is, of the few times he has played for us the only bad performance was against Villa this season but that was along with all the rest of the players who had a shocker. But when he plays he is one of our best midfielders without doubt - I just think most of us don't rate him because he is never available ... like fucking never never. For 50M+ you think he would be available, I can forgive Matip's record because he was a free transfer but when we spend 50M+ on a player I expect them to play in 80% of matches per season.

Keita and Thiago both have alot of technical quality and if they can make a difference here, they can be world beaters, but there are too many times with Keita that he has shirked it a bit when the chips have been down. He should really be a match winner, that's what we thought we were buying and we've seen that sort of quality only a few times, which for the price puts him in the disappointing bracket. Partly because he's had his Liverpool career disrupted by injuries, but he's another (at the moment) in a long line of attacking players who came with big expectations and totally flattered to deceive. He's no good to us if he's out half the season and then spends however long trying to get up to speed. Same with Ox.

We can blame the tactics and training intensity for injuries, but maybe there are just some players that can take it and some that can't. Keita might not have had half these injuries in a different team or league, but there are alot of players who've thrived in this system and probably won't replicate that kind of form and fitness elsewhere.
 
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