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The Suarez/Evra Racism Row

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479201#msg1479201 date=1328700954]
Why would that be Jules ?

You're allowed meet with your own witnesses as many times as you like before a trial. It's not unusual at all
[/quote]

It's the commission's handling of that evidence I'm referring to. They took Evra through the video. They didn't afford Suarez the same privilege.
 
Ross, focusing just upon the report itself, do you...

1) Think that it is objectively "fair" to reach the conclusions it did.
2) Think that it is enough to conclude that Suarez was acting in a racially offensive manner.
 
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1479224#msg1479224 date=1328702091]
Just for the record Ross -what do you think should have happened?
[/quote]

Banned for 4 games
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479226#msg1479226 date=1328702273]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1479224#msg1479224 date=1328702091]
Just for the record Ross -what do you think should have happened?
[/quote]

Banned for 4 games
[/quote]

Same as me.
 
LTW - I'll repeat this for the 1,000,000th time. I do not think he's racist.

It is technically a fair comment to make based on the findings though, and that's why he'll never take a defamation case against papers that have said so.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479226#msg1479226 date=1328702273]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1479224#msg1479224 date=1328702091]
Just for the record Ross -what do you think should have happened?
[/quote]

Banned for 4 games
[/quote]
Having been found guilty of exactly what?
 
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1479237#msg1479237 date=1328702489]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479226#msg1479226 date=1328702273]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1479224#msg1479224 date=1328702091]
Just for the record Ross -what do you think should have happened?
[/quote]

Banned for 4 games
[/quote]
Having been found guilty of exactly what?
[/quote]

racially abusing/insulting Evra.
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=47188.msg1479222#msg1479222 date=1328701959]
He hasn't read the report
[/quote]

That's too short and there's no graphs.

Come back to me with a proper post
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479190#msg1479190 date=1328700517]
[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1479183#msg1479183 date=1328700039]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479166#msg1479166 date=1328697279]
What do you base this sort of comment on ?
[/quote]

I base it on the fact that the impressive-looking 115-page report was actually Evra's version of what happened in the goalmouth, which the committee had set down wholesale on the basis that they thought Evra was a reliable witness whereas Suarez wasn't. Suarez was presumed guilty and had to prove himself innocent. It was a mockery of justice which would not have lasted 5 minutes in a proper court of law. The committee themselves said they were dealing with "probabilities."

The committee concluded that in their opinion Suarez is not a racist, but I suggest they only said this to protect the FA from being sued for defamation. Nobody in the media has taken much notice of that part of the verdict, so Suarez is left with a permanent stain on his character. I see the logic in LTW's suggestion that the club should just forget about it and move on, but I don't want it to be dropped. It rankles.
[/quote]

Every single civil court deals with cases on the balance of probabilities, defamation would be tried on the balance of probabilities. Suarez is free to sue the newspapers if he thinks they are defaming him. I haven't heard of any case in the works yet - because you're only entitled to the reputation you deserve, not a good one.

It was for the FA to prove the case, and they did because Suarez removed the hardest part of the job for them by his admission.


It's not just Evra's account (in which he places himself in a spot of bother - which lends it authenticity). You have to see that it's corroborated by Commoli, Kuyt and the TV evidence. Suarez's story is at odds with every other shred of evidence - that's why it was deemed unreliable and had to be. Suarez is an awful witness and his own worst enemy in this. He changed his story numerous times, initially it was the same as Kuyt and Comolli's then it changed to something more harmless. The conversation he insists happened isn't one that a reasonable person could conclude took place between two adult footballers with IQ's in double figures.
[/quote]

Your full of shit mate. He did NOT admit to what he was charged with. He did NOT admit what he was convicted with. And the report says that if his story was true he would probably have walked free.

All the probabilities in the report convicting Suarez could just as well have been used to support him. The "independent" panel had no agenda of looking into the probabilities for him being innocent to what he was charged with.

You say he can bring all witness he wants. So he dint bring any witnesses as their was nothing said. Evra brought in witnesseswhich NOT saw or heard anything but what he had told them, and they hall had different stories to what he had told them. That alone means that Luis probably was innocent towards the charge.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479234#msg1479234 date=1328702456]
LTW - I'll repeat this for the 1,000,000th time. I do not think he's racist.

It is technically a fair comment to make based on the findings though, and that's why he'll never take a defamation case against papers that have said so.
[/quote]

If he were to try, based on the unsuitability of the FA verdict, would that then have to be looked at in a proper court?

The FA verdict that is. Just curious like
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479234#msg1479234 date=1328702456]
LTW - I'll repeat this for the 1,000,000th time. I do not think he's racist.

It is technically a fair comment to make based on the findings though, and that's why he'll never take a defamation case against papers that have said so.
[/quote]

That makes no sense - saying the word (forgetting his origin etc) once, gives no right to call someone a racist. Based on that logic, any one on this site can call Ryan a racist. I don't buy that.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479239#msg1479239 date=1328702567]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1479237#msg1479237 date=1328702489]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479226#msg1479226 date=1328702273]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1479224#msg1479224 date=1328702091]
Just for the record Ross -what do you think should have happened?
[/quote]

Banned for 4 games
[/quote]
Having been found guilty of exactly what?
[/quote]

racially abusing/insulting Evra.
[/quote]
 
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47188.msg1479232#msg1479232 date=1328702421]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479226#msg1479226 date=1328702273]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1479224#msg1479224 date=1328702091]
Just for the record Ross -what do you think should have happened?
[/quote]

Banned for 4 games
[/quote]

Same as me.
[/quote]

I think you should be banned for a lot more than that. ;)
 
Apologies if this has already been pointed out, but I can't face going back through pages of people shouting at each other, but I just thought this was weird;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9067631/Manchester-United-fans-ready-to-ratchet-up-the-abuse-for-Luis-Suarez-and-Liverpool.html
No comments allowed

Whereas

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9068276/Manchester-United-v-Liverpool-Luis-Suarez-says-any-abuse-regarding-Patrice-Evra-race-row-will-spur-him-on.html#disqus_thread

Cue every wanker under the S** to take a pot shot again
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479239#msg1479239 date=1328702567]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1479237#msg1479237 date=1328702489]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479226#msg1479226 date=1328702273]
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47188.msg1479224#msg1479224 date=1328702091]
Just for the record Ross -what do you think should have happened?
[/quote]

Banned for 4 games
[/quote]
Having been found guilty of exactly what?
[/quote]

racially abusing/insulting Evra.
[/quote]

This is where we diverge. I agree he abused/insulted Evra, it goes on in every game & it is a dangerous game the FA is playing with this one as they would have to charge their beloved Utd players with it every week.

As I understand it, the racial bit (which I disagree with) merely increases the penalty for the abuse bit? So are we now going to see players charged every week for calling each other names? Of course not.

It all stinks to high heaven.
 
"The FA do not think Luis Suarez is racist. "

Evra: "Let me start by saying, I don't believe Luis Suarez is a racist".

That part still baffles me. I get Rosco's point, Suarez made it easy by his own admission, but I get the other side, he wasn't admitting to being racist, he admitted to using a term that in his culture isn't deemed racist.

This argument is just going around in circles. The moralistic ones, who consider Luis a racist and all round unsavoury character, the sympathises who recognise his naivety and intent (or lack of) and the clinical surgeons with the rule book at hand, ready to deliver point and paragraph.

It's all bollocks really and it's done with now.
 
We were condemnd with the booing of Evra last week. Wait until the wekend, there will be absolutely noone asking Fergie about the booing for Luis. And to be fair the booing is part of the game and fergie shouldnt be bothered about it, but the press who has made it a huge story last week will not even touch it this time around.
 
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1479271#msg1479271 date=1328703916]
We were condemnd with the booing of Evra last week. Wait until the wekend, there will be absolutely noone asking Fergie about the booing for Luis. And to be fair the booing is part of the game and fergie shouldnt be bothered about it, but the press who has made it a huge story last week will not even touch it this time around.
[/quote]

Of course they won't, because they will be booing a condemned racist won't they? In the eyes of the press, United, the FA and anyone else who feels obliged to stick their oar in (oh and lets not forget, Jason Roberts).

We, on the other hand, booed a poor innocent victim who isn't a crying twat, nor a bullshitter nor a man who himself has used racist derogatory terms.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47188.msg1479243#msg1479243 date=1328702626]
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=47188.msg1479222#msg1479222 date=1328701959]
He hasn't read the report
[/quote]

That's too short and there's no graphs.

Come back to me with a proper post
[/quote]

True though, ain't it?
 
If the United fans go too far with their abuse of Suarez, it may well rebound on them and they could end up with egg on their faces.

The general impression won't be that they are adopting a high moral plane regarding racism.
 
[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1479280#msg1479280 date=1328704447]
If the United fans go too far with their abuse of Suarez, it may well rebound on them and they could end up with egg on their faces.

The general impression won't be that they are adopting a high moral plane regarding racism.
[/quote]

But how far is too far. I kind of like the passion you see in some countries where the supporters do their job and act like a competitive edge to their team. They do what they can to unbalance the opposition as well as give their own the full support. Under those terms I would glaldy accept whatever was thrown at us as part of the package by supporting the club. But here it I guess people will show their abuse in unfashioned disastrous ways. It was even mentioned a stunt where Mancs were planning to smuggle white sheets to use as KKK outfits in the Anfield match (They will defo not dare to do it at home).

I cant see the big fuzz with some boooing. Evra have to handle it, and he knew it would come. Luis too. No big deal. rasisct songs is a bit too much I guess?
 
I don't think they can go too far, I don't think anyone will take that viewpoint (and it's extremely rare I disagree with Portly), the press will lap it up and are probably praying they do give him shit and he has a poor game as a consequence, it'll be seen as justice all round, especially after Evra's performance and treatment last week.
 
[quote author=Jack D Rips link=topic=47188.msg1479294#msg1479294 date=1328705198]
Is there any talk of a minutes silence for the Munich anniversary?
[/quote]

Havent heard. But the original 8 minutes silence against racism will be prolonged with a minute for intentional fingerflipping!
 
I think that it can demean a serious subject when it becomes part of football banter between supporters. I think when the United fans have a go at Suarez it will be pretty obvious that they are doing so because he plays for Liverpool FC and not because of their moral outrage about racism.

It's the same reason I didn't like "stand up for the 96" at Anfield.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47188.msg1479267#msg1479267 date=1328703758]
"The FA do not think Luis Suarez is racist. "

Evra: "Let me start by saying, I don't believe Luis Suarez is a racist".

That part still baffles me. I get Rosco's point, Suarez made it easy by his own admission, but I get the other side, he wasn't admitting to being racist, he admitted to using a term that in his culture isn't deemed racist.

This argument is just going around in circles. The moralistic ones, who consider Luis a racist and all round unsavoury character, the sympathises who recognise his naivety and intent (or lack of) and the clinical surgeons with the rule book at hand, ready to deliver point and paragraph.

It's all bollocks really and it's done with now.
[/quote]

He was charged with abuse with reference to race. He did abuse and he did reference race(although depending on which version of events you chose to believe, not necessarily at the same time).

But yeah, it's done with now and hopefully we can move on.
 
[quote author=Portly link=topic=47188.msg1479299#msg1479299 date=1328705321]
I think that it can demean a serious subject when it becomes part of football banter between supporters. I think when the United fans have a go at Evra it will be pretty obvious that they are doing so because he plays for Liverpool FC and not because of their moral outrage about racism.

It's the same reason I didn't like "stand up for the 96" at Anfield.
[/quote]

I think it is because he is French. Or Black. Or both. I am pretty sure it is not because he plays for Liverpool!
 
[quote author=Insignificance link=topic=47188.msg1479302#msg1479302 date=1328705424]
I think it is because he is French. Or Black. Or both. I am pretty sure it is not because he plays for Liverpool!
[/quote]

;D OK OK! I have edited my previous post.
 
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