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The Lions 2013

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Doc:
doctor_mac said:
Every educated foward I've heard *has* been talking about it, and has said it was a bewildering call. Certainly the discussion they had on the 5Live rugby special on the Lions selection *all* of them thought Hartley was hugely lucky to have been selected above him, and most had him in their starting 15. Quite frankly, Gatland is a cunt. His discussion of the decision suggests he took the call on this one against the advice of his fellow selectors. I don't want to believe his history with Best (who Gatland criticised for comments he made before an Ireland/ Wales game) wasn't influencing him, but I think it is possible. It was a bad call. I can see him being called in about 4 weeks into the tour, but he should have been on the plane.
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The Telegraph ran with this story earlier on this week: No rift with Dylan Hartley, insists coach Warren Gatland.

Gatland has had more than one spats with Hartley, so i think that rubbishes any personal dislike for Best being the reason for him not being included.
 
Rosco said:
Rafa is correct in saying he's not that physical a player, he doesn't tend to knock people back in one on one encounters - which I think did count against him, but I think it's a foolish way to pick a hooker.
.
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It's a important factor and i agree it would be a poor way to pick a hooker if that was all the selections were based on. That clearly wasn't the case though.

As is a given Best doesn't rank well with the others in terms of being a ball carrying/physical presence, he also falls short in the set piece when compared to the likes of Youngs and Hibberd.

You and Doc are over stating his abilities, whilst not giving enough credit to the players selected ahead of him.

Best can be classed as unlucky not to be selected because he must of been very close to getting that 3rd spot, but when looking at how Gatland wants to play it's clear why Hartley got the nod. The Austrailian press had it right when they said: "British and Irish Lions coach Warren Gatland will try and physically dominate Australia's fleet-footed artists by selecting a squad made up of "slabs of red meat". Does Best fit in with this game plan? Not a chance!
 
How does he fall short in the set piece ?

Hartley is a liability, and routinely gets outplayed by other hookers - Best being one of them. Youngs is a physical specimen no doubt but his throw will be easily picked apart by opposition second row and his lack of experience will cost us.

Hibbard looks pretty solid all round, I'd have him in the squad. I'd actually have his back up - Ken Owens ahead of both of the English hookers. I'd have Strauss ahead of them as well.

The emphasis on physicality will come back to haunt us. The scrum (and the game itself) is about a whole lot more than strength - the likes of Vunipola and Youngs are a liability in that regard.

It's hard not to think about the Lions tour in 1997, the last time we were successful. We went out with the biggest strongest props we could find and eventually it dawned on us technique was way more important and ended up with the smallest props in the squad anchoring the scrum (Wallace and Smith)
 
Rosco said:
How does he fall short in the set piece ?

Hartley is a liability, and routinely gets outplayed by other hookers - Best being one of them. Youngs is a physical specimen no doubt but his throw will be easily picked apart by opposition second row and his lack of experience will cost us.

Hibbard looks pretty solid all round, I'd have him in the squad. I'd actually have his back up - Ken Owens ahead of both of the English hookers. I'd have Strauss ahead of them as well.

The emphasis on physicality will come back to haunt us. The scrum (and the game itself) is about a whole lot more than strength - the likes of Vunipola and Youngs are a liability in that regard.

It's hard not to think about the Lions tour in 1997, the last time we were successful. We went out with the biggest strongest props we could find and eventually it dawned on us technique was way more important and ended up with the smallest props in the squad anchoring the scrum (Wallace and Smith)
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He's simply not as good as Youngs or Hibberd in the set piece. I don't think there is much in it between Hartley and Best, it's just that imo Hartleys physical attributes around the park have got him the nod.

I don't think anyone has said that technique isn't important, it's just that the likes of Youngs, Hibberd and Hartley can bring both technique AND strength to the party, something that Best can't.

I really don't know how you can come to the conclusion that "The emphasis on physicality will come back to haunt us", seeing as you yourself have said that you agree with the vast majority of the squad selections. Apart from Best who do you think should have been picked then?
 
Rosco said:
The emphasis on physicality will come back to haunt us.
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So from this ^^^^^^^

to:

Rosco:"There's not a whole lot to argue with in the squad though - it's obvious from the interviews (and the selection reflects it) they were looking to bring a very physical side down under. If the coaches can get the right atmosphere in the squad this could go very well for us".
 
Brendan4PM said:
Out of interest, how did Youngs and Hartley get on in Dublin in this seasons six nations?
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Not very well. Tom Youngs was shit, and replaced early in the second half. Hartley did nothing of interest other than give away a stupid penalty.

They were dominated by the Irish pack.
 
something i hadn't considered:

ESPNscrum's Greg Growden:
"The British & Irish Lions squad is formidable, but it is well short of being absolutely fabulous. Let's just say the Wallabies aren't exactly quivering. As expected, Warren Gatland has gone for those he knows, leading to a rich Welsh tinge in the squad, and it is due to this that the Wallabies already hold a considerable psychological advantage.
"The core of the Lions squad are players accustomed to losing to Australia, with Wales winless against the Wallabies since November 2008 and defeated in their past eight Test encounters against the green and gold. So the Wallabies will stress that dominant factor when they eventually assemble for what will be a highly combative, keen and mean Test series."
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Kurtley Beale has just been suspended for off-field adventures. Happens about every 3 weeks with that looney tune.
Drew Mitchell and Berrick Barnes back from long-term injuries for this weekend. Long long term so they're rusty.
Quade Cooper hitting form so that means Deans will pick Barnes.
Israel Folau is the form player of Super Rugby but some 'experts' don't want him picked as he's ex-RL and isn't long-term committed to RU. If the Aussies want a chance, they need to pick him, he's awesome.
Longer-term damage, Mitchell and Digby Ioane (Aussies best wingman) are off to France for next season. The strength in depth is poor here all of a sudden.
 
The Aussies might have issues in certain areas, but there backline still looks pretty tasty.

9. Genia 10. Cooper 11. Ioane 12. Adam Ashley-Cooper 13. Folau (Plays like Sonny Bill from the highlights i've seen) 14. Mtchell 15. Beale.
 
Not worth a new thread, but has anyone else seen the new laws about the scrum?
From next season it's: Crouch, 'Bind', Set.

Refs have been instructed to make sure that the bindings are fixed and the scrum is square before the 'set' command is given. Also the put in to the scrum will be strictly monitored (no more dodgy feeds).

This will have a huge impact on the art of scrummaging.
 
Brendan4PM said:
The Aussies might have issues in certain areas, but there backline still looks pretty tasty.

9. Genia 10. Cooper 11. Ioane 12. Adam Ashley-Cooper 13. Folau (Plays like Sonny Bill from the highlights i've seen) 14. Mtchell 15. Beale.
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That's if Cooper plays. If he doesn't they're struggling at 10.

They've had cracking backs and halves for years, and some excellent back rowers, but quite often not a good enough front five in the scrum to give them a decent platform and their backs have pulled their fat out of the fire on numerous occasions. They're still not brilliant up front, but they do seem to be stronger there than they've been for a while. If Cooper and Deans can park their differences I make the Wallabies slight favourites TBH.
 
I don't think Beale will play, Folau will be at 15. Also, they need to get O'Connor in there. I'd go 12 but I think Deans will play him on the wing and put a grinder like McCabe at 12. Hope not.
If the Aussies throw caution to the wind, they've got a chance. If they play it cagey (Barnes, McCabe etc) I don't know.
 
Folau has nothing like the same physicality that SBW has. He is quicker though, and is much more elusive. Both have great hands. I think he has only ever played 10 or 12 games of Union but if he's not on the teamsheet, they've cocked up.
 
Although he is a huge lump (6.5 and 16 stone) i'd agree he's not as physical as Sonny Bill, but his off loading game reiminds me very much of the kiwi.

They did a slot on him that i saw recently and he was one of the most devastating attackers in super rugby, but he was also one of the leading players for missed tackles. Most of the experts seemed to have him on the bench as a game changer if things weren't going well for the Aussies.
 
JJ: I can't help but feel that the loss of Pocock will be too much for the Aussies to recover from. I have us as 2-1 or 3-0 winners.

I know the Aussies backs have got them out of the shite on numerous occasions in the past (especially against northern hemisphere sides), but this British and Irish Lions team can field a quality backline as well. I'd actually give our centres and wings the edge over their Aussie counterparts.

With regards to the packs, well on paper it's a mismatch. If Gatland can get them to gel then we could end up battering them.
 
You might be right, mate, but I'm not sure any edge we might have over them will be sufficiently wide to overcome home advantage. If the series were taking place up here I'd probably have us just ahead. Out there, I have a hunch the balance may swing towards them.
 
See Rory Best was picked in the Guardian's best 15 from the Heineken Cup:

2 Rory Best (Ulster)
The statistics suggest the durable Ulsterman has won more turnovers than anyone else in the competition this season. It is another reason why his omission from the Lions squad was a surprise; if his form tailed off slightly in the second half of the season, he looked the best hooker in Europe before Christmas.
 
Really ?

I love playing teams with a flaky turnover merchant at 10, especially ones who can't hack it at the highest level of international rugby.
 
Company I work for sponsors Scott Higginbotham.

O'Connor is very talented, but he's not in great form this season.
 
For some reason, that 25 start training now, then 6 are added in June. Can't work that one out.

I wouldn't play O'Connor at stand-off. I am starting to think Barnes is going to get the nod on account of his ability to regularly kick the ball into the stands from anywhere.
 
Looks like Best is going to make it now.

Hartley sent off for calling the ref a fucking cheat - heard on live TV. 4 week ban expected
 
Yeah i saw that.

The panel meet today to decide if he will be banned or not, 6 weeks is the guide line. He is claiming he said it to Tom Youngs, but even if that was the case Barnes had warned him about his language earlier on in the game.

Talk about a double whammy! Not only did he cost his side the Premiership, he could also miss probably his only chance to tour with the Lions.

How is O'Brien doing? I heard he got injured for Leinster (Talk of Robshaw getting called up).
 
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