RefVARees

[Frogfish]

The principle applies, but the magnitude of the effect is not comparable because the camera is not on top of his head and he is not 200ft tall. For example, this building is tall, it's sides are slanted. Fine. Firmino is short, the same height as the doorways at the base of the building, which are not slanted.

You are missing the point mate. Look at the distortion even in that shot and yes even the doorways are slanted (and if you cropped the photo you could see it clearly) ... from a normal standing perspective and shot face on. The height of the subject isn't the main issue .. it's the camera sensor's position relative to the subject (angle and height).

Look back again at the shot I posted of the incident, the camera is in the stands (and the shot cropped of course) and the top half of their bodies are clearly larger and not in proportion to their legs, that's perspective distortion and even in that shot it's obvious.

BTW even a small degree of perspective distortion makes a huge difference, my Tilt lens corrects up to 10 degrees but usually only 4-6 degrees are necessary to correct a building such as the one you've shown. Though that again will depend on your perspective relative to the subject.

Anyway I'm not going to debate this with you because it's pointless. Perspective distortion is a known & very obvious photographic phenomena that we go to great lengths to try to correct (either in camera - via a tilt/shift lens, or using distortion controls in post processing - such as with PS, LR or I use ON1 and Luminar) and if you refuse to accept the science what more can I say

 

[Frogfish]

Clearly Kammy is making a fool of himself here. Rotate that picture until we are looking at Firmino square on (level with him) from the goal-line and I'm now of the opinion that line will be at 90 degrees.
However as I said earlier that line isn't the issue - it's the horizontal (the one we saw Atkinson manipulate twice).

 

[Hyena]

I did not watch the video but I think the vertical line is a distraction.

The point is where he draws the horizontal.

The horizontal should be drawn where the vertical would have "hit" the ground , if it were a plumb line falling from firmino's armpit. If he was facing the camera straight on the would be the level of his feet.

Since his torso is tilted, his armpit is further from the camera than his feet. In this case you can see the vertical line has been drawn way too long , past hours get when it should be slightly shorter. Shortening the vertical line by just millimeters places him clearly onside.

 

[dantes]

Clearly Kammy is making a fool of himself here. Rotate that picture until we are looking at Firmino square on (level with him) from the goal-line and I'm now of the opinion that line will be at 90 degrees.
However as I said earlier that line isn't the issue - it's the horizontal (the one we saw Atkinson manipulate twice).

That's not possible. The line goes from his right armpit and hits the floor towards the outside of his left knee.

 

[momoWASboss]

From the guardians 10 things from the weekend games. It looks like EVERYONE is pissed off with VAR.

[article]
VAR providing more questions than answers
Liverpool’s win over Aston Villa on Saturday was achieved despite more VAR-related controversy. Afterwards Dean Smith said he was pleased that he and the other 19 Premier League managers will meet authorities this week to discuss changes to VAR. “They are talking to the right people,” Smith said. “I was at a meeting last Thursday and every manager is going to another meeting this Thursday. Then the CEOs and the Premier League will get together and decide where they’re taking it. You can’t scrap it now, there are 28 countries using it. We all wanted it to find the right decisions but there was always going to be teething problems. We need to find a happy medium. I feel they’re taking a little bit of authority away from the referee. If he thinks it’s a goal and VAR are telling him there’s something [to disallow it] other than a factual reason, I’d like him to go over and have a look himself.”

[/article]

 

[My_Blood_Bleeds_Red]

VAR IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

Them lot are the PROBLEM.

In other words, nothing's really changed. You'd think VAR would have helped improve the refereeing. Instead, VAR has merely given referees and linesmen, especially the inept, incompetent and hapless ones to have more power to do whatever they want

 

[The Nomad]

It's quite simple to improve the usage of VAR.

Invest in the technology to have more cameras and better resolutions

Have a time limit of 60 seconds to find something to over turn a decision otherwise stick with the on field decision. None of this take 3 minutes to draw some lines to make the narrative fit.

Involve the referee to have a look before making a final decision under a 'hood review's NFL style.

Also inform the crowd exactly what they are looking for. I.e. potential handball on defence.

All simple things.

 

[Modo]

Exactly, if you want it to work, it will work.
But it's so clear that the refs want it gone. So they're using it the worst possible way.

 

[Dave G]

Linesmen shouldn't flag at all unless there is clear and obvious daylight for offside. Then, if the player scores, VAR checks the piece of his body that scored ( head , which foot etc ) to see if that actual bit was offside. If it wasn't tough, the goal is given as the part of the player scoring was onside.

 

[Frogfish]

Exactly, if you want it to work, it will work.
But it's so clear that the refs want it gone. So they're using it the worst possible way.

Honestly mate .. are you a member of Flat Earth too? What is it 28 countries using it ? The FA will continue to follow everyone else because simply it's pretty much the only way forward. It will be refined, rules will change, officials will become better at using it and eventually it will work well. However if there's one certainty it's that it will never be retracted.

 

[Frogfish]

Linesmen shouldn't flag at all unless there is clear and obvious daylight for offside. Then, if the player scores, VAR checks the piece of his body that scored ( head , which foot etc ) to see if that actual bit was offside. If it wasn't tough, the goal is given as the part of the player scoring was onside.

Actually I thought that is what is supposed to happen now ! We've seen it operate like this in other games . the linesman fucked up and thought it was 2018.

 

[Modo]

Honestly mate .. are you a member of Flat Earth too? What is it 28 countries using it ? The FA will continue to follow everyone else because simply it's pretty much the only way forward. It will be refined, rules will change, officials will become better at using it and eventually it will work well. However if there's one certainty it's that it will never be retracted.

I don't see the difficulty in it. That's what bothers me. Just be consistent. I'm a fan VAR, I can excuse a lot of the so called mistakes they've done but what happened to Firmino is inexcusable and a blatant error by the ref. Bordering on corruption.

 

[Frogfish]

I don't see the difficulty in it. That's what bothers me. Just be consistent. I'm a fan VAR, I can excuse a lot of the so called mistakes they've done but what happened to Firmino is inexcusable and a blatant error by the ref. Bordering on corruption.

Or total incompetence. However it was Atkinson soooo.

All I want is an explanation as to why there were two positions used for the horizontal. Though it does seem more training is required - maybe a technically adept VAR operator with a ref sat next to him.

 

[Halmeister]

It was becauuuuuse he didn't want to overturn the first decision, so he faffed around until he could make Firmino look offside.

 

[the count]

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

I've mentioned this before in connection with referees - who are making erroneous decisions that can have multi-million pound consequences on clubs.

Where is the accountability? Every other job, everywhere has consequences for poor performance. And yet we never see any one of the referees held accountable for their actions. They act like an old boys club - circling the wagons and acting to defend themselves.

I think VAR still has a place. It's just that Atkinson can't be allowed to get away with his fucking bullshit any more.

 

[Actonian]

Dermot Gallagher has said that it was right to rule Firmino offside because he could have scored with his armpit. Leaving aside the biological complexities of this, given that you now can't score with your arm, then surely he shouldn't have been given offside. Gallagher is either unaware of the new interpretation or he's talking shite. Either way, you've got to wonder how he is wheeled out as a pundit.
This whole fiasco should be throwing a glaring light on the man responsible for wheeling out VAR and for the general dismal standard of officiating in this country. Mike Riley should be out of a job immediately.

 

[Insignificance]

I've mentioned this before in connection with referees - who are making erroneous decisions that can have multi-million pound consequences on clubs.

Where is the accountability? Every other job, everywhere has consequences for poor performance. And yet we never see any one of the referees held accountable for their actions. They act like an old boys club - circling the wagons and acting to defend themselves.

I think VAR still has a place. It's just that Atkinson can't be allowed to get away with his fucking bullshit any more.

I think we should be careful to crusify refs over the accidental poor decision. Player mistakes cost clubs more than ref mistakes... at least they used to do before VAR. But constant poor refereeing should have some consequences.

I actually thought the refs had quite well performances before VAR. Linesmen can't have missed more than 2-3 % of offside? But the constant moaning has pushed VAR through and now we have to see this shit stirring up our game.

 

[momoWASboss]

There is a massive difference between swinging your foot in the last millisecond to either score or miss a goal compared to making a decision of a player got hacked or not.

The standard of refereeing is as worse as I can remember. VAR is making it worse because they now get more big decisions wrong.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Linesmen shouldn't flag at all unless there is clear and obvious daylight for offside. Then, if the player scores, VAR checks the piece of his body that scored ( head , which foot etc ) to see if that actual bit was offside. If it wasn't tough, the goal is given as the part of the player scoring was onside.

Firmino scored with his foot and they didn’t overturn it

 

[momoWASboss]

Oh dreamy.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

I think we should be careful to crusify refs over the accidental poor decision. Player mistakes cost clubs more than ref mistakes... at least they used to do before VAR. But constant poor refereeing should have some consequences.

I actually thought the refs had quite well performances before VAR. Linesmen can't have missed more than 2-3 % of offside? But the constant moaning has pushed VAR through and now we have to see this shit stirring up our game.

But isn't that the point of VAR? To offset an accidental poor decision?
That's totally fine by the way - it happens to the best of us. But when Atkinson has a hand in multiple bullshit calls that are called out by everyone as blatantly wrong, he should face criticism and additional scrutiny. If he's innocent of any bias then he should invite the inquiry.

 

[tombrown]

The problem is the authorities decided that VAR overturning a decision could potentially undermine the authority of the ref so they set this supposedly high bar of 'clear and obvious error' (*)

Their premise is wrong - it should be that they accept referees can and will make errors (speed of game, being unsighted etc) and VAR should be used to correct those mistakes with no reflection on the ref, as the correction is made using slow mo and multiple replays.

In fact the current approach is worse as, if VAR does overrule a decision under the current premise, it is in fact saying the ref made a clear and obvious error and so is a crap ref.

Accept errors are part and parcel of refereeing and allow VAR to correct those understandable errors and I think a lot of the angst goes away

(*) - with the supposed exception of offside and attackers handball when a goal is scored.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Clear and obvious is used in Rugby too.

 

[Judge Jules]

It is, but they're able to apply that standard because they're refereeing grown men, rather than (mostly) a bunch of overgrown feral brats.

 

[King Binny]

 

[darkstarexodus]

The referees should definitely have latitude to do pitchside review. We have interminable delays already with the end result of some off-pitch wanker too scared to overrule the ref. What purpose does this serve?

 

[Markeh]

ESPN have worked out the table without VAR and........ we're still top

Liverpool have surged clear at the top, and believe it or not VAR has not been working in Jurgen Klopp's favour with overturns having no effect on their points tally. Liverpool are given a victory at Manchester United (drew 1-1) and a draw at Chelsea (won 2-1), which even themselves out. Maybe the title isn't going to be won in the VAR room.

Manchester City, however, climb into second and the gap is cut to seven points, with two extra points from their late winner against Tottenham that was ruled out by the VAR after the ball hit the arm of Aymeric Laporte.

 

[Halmeister]

Erm, what decision did we benefit from against Chelsea?

 

[momoWASboss]

Chelsea scored but it was ruled out for offside.