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Kuyt

[quote author=Piedro link=topic=14248.msg327476#msg327476 date=1185870274]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=14248.msg327475#msg327475 date=1185870206]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327470#msg327470 date=1185870011]
Yeah, he's hardly got any posts to his name.

Such a SKIVER.
[/quote]

(but they're all in GC and Music/Film, tsk)
[/quote]

????
[/quote]

I mean he posts in the other forums more Pete, (or maybe I've missed him in here lately, dunno..)

Am I just talking arse? :-[
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327438#msg327438 date=1185866843]
He played quite a few and RM and at second-striker. Neither of them really suit him. The RM is better than the second-striker, though.

I agree that he should be playing in CM with Mascher, but I believe that Rafa prefers him at RM.
[/quote]

Not more than 10 games in the league and Rafael prefer his flanks have one classic winger(Kewell or Pennant) and the other flank with a player like Garcia, Gerrard or Benayoun. We won't see both the flanks with wingers who can provide non-stop crosses. He wants one who can cut inside and the other who can provide crosses consistently.
 
1) Gerrard is NOT THE SAME as Benayoun and Garcia
2) Do you believe Gerrard will get more games at CM than Alonso and Mascher?
 
[quote author=Glock link=topic=14248.msg327505#msg327505 date=1185871489]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327438#msg327438 date=1185866843]
He played quite a few and RM and at second-striker. Neither of them really suit him. The RM is better than the second-striker, though.

I agree that he should be playing in CM with Mascher, but I believe that Rafa prefers him at RM.
[/quote]

Not more than 10 games in the league and Rafael prefer his flanks have one classic winger(Kewell or Pennant) and the other flank with a player like Garcia, Gerrard or Benayoun. We won't see both the flanks with wingers who can provide non-stop crosses. He wants one who can cut inside and the other who can provide crosses consistently.
[/quote]

I think that's the first sensible thing you have posted all day.

Just out of curiosity, is English your first language?
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327508#msg327508 date=1185871624]
1) Gerrard is NOT THE SAME as Benayoun and Garcia
I think he means in the sense that none of them are classic wide men/wingers, all provide something different to what will (hopefully) be provided on the opposite flank.
 
Well that doesn't make sense either, because he's talking in response to me putting Gerrard on the right in a line-up where I'm predicting what Rafa will do.

He's mental.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327508#msg327508 date=1185871624]
1) Gerrard is NOT THE SAME as Benayoun and Garcia
2) Do you believe Gerrard will get more games at CM than Alonso and Mascher?
[/quote]

YES correct.

YES.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327533#msg327533 date=1185872642]
Well that doesn't make sense either, because he's talking in response to me putting Gerrard on the right in a line-up where I'm predicting what Rafa will do.

He's mental.
[/quote]

Gerrard is a bit of a both. He's better than Benayoun and Garcia put together if he plays at right wing but he's better as a central midfielder. No questions about it. Gerrard can beat his man and launch crosses after crosses from right flank, he can also cut inside and shoot. He's good and no comparison should be made between Gerrard and other players in our team. No.
 
[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=14248.msg327366#msg327366 date=1185850128]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327333#msg327333 date=1185837838]
[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=14248.msg327307#msg327307 date=1185832835]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327301#msg327301 date=1185832069]

Quite simply, I think the player most likely to forge a partnership with Torres is Kuyt. He has the intelligence and (IMO, obviously) the ability to make it work. Whether you think he's good enough to take us forward here is not really the issue. The issue is whether he is the best option we have available currently and I think it's pretty clear that he is.
[/quote]

I think it depends on where Torres will end up playing. If he plays second striker or "in the hole", than Crouch IMO would make a better partner because Crouch is simply a better inside the box striker than Kuyt. If Torres, on the other hand, plays up front, than Kuyt is clearly the best option we have to support him as a second striker.
[/quote]

Sorry mate but I think you've got that the wrong way around. Kuyt needs to play higher up the pitch to get the best out of him. That's what he did for Feyenoord. What's more, having Kuyt deep exploits his lack of pace making it very difficult for him to overlap and join the attack when necessary (as illustrated by his relative absence in the penalty area last season). The same isn't true of Torres. Not only can he link the play but he has the pace to burst through from deep. IMO, he's never looked truly comfortable as a 'first' striker for Atletico. He looks almost stranded at the top of the pitch. Such is his technical ability I think we'd benefit if he was more involved in the build up play.

As far as I'm concerned this system would play to each players strengths; yours would not.

[/quote]

OK, let's look at Kuyt's main strengths:

1. movement and positioning
2. work rate
3. intelligence

... and weaknesses:

1. lack of pace
2. inconsistent first touch
3. inconsistent finishing

Now, where do you put such a striker to get the best out of him? Let's consider all possibilities.

1. First striker/target man/fox in the box.
The environment inside the penalty area is very different from all other areas of the pitch. One important difference is that it is the most congested area on the pitch with the least amount of space and time to operate. A top level defense almost never allows a striker more than one touch inside the area until he is surrounded and tackled. Therefore, first touch is by far the most crucial part of the game for inside the box strikers, because they only meet with the ball for that one touch, after that they either shoot or the chance is gone.

There are other important qualities too. One is positioning, because at top level you won't get even one touch if you don't win a struggle for position. So positioning is also a must-have. Then there are qualities like finishing and athleticism which determine what kind of inside the box striker you are, a stealth scorer in the mold of Robbie Fowler, Raul or Indzaghi (great finishing, no athleticism) or a target man who brings in other players like Drogba, Crouch or Koller (inconsistent finishing, great athleticism) with the likes of RvN, Trezeguet or Shearer somewhere in between. For Drogba, his athleticism is so overpowering that last season it compensated even for some of his technical shortcomings.

2. Second striker/withdrawn striker/in the hole.

That position is harder to pin down because there is such a great variety of second strikers and they are all very different. Some of them have good pace like Rooney and some are slow but very intelligent like Bergkamp. If there is something to be said about them in general is that the main prerequisites for a withdrawn striker are intelligence, creativity and movement. First touch is still important (it's important at any position), but less so than inside the box, because there is more space and time. Good finishing is welcome, but not required. Usually "in the hole" players are judged more but what they add to the attacking play in general than by the number of goals they score.

3. On the wing.

Pace and dribbling ability are usually the main prerequisites for a winger-striker. First touch and positioning are less important.

======

So where does it leave our Dirk Kuyt? He clearly doesn't belong on the wing, even though he played there sometimes for Holland. His first touch is not good enough for an inside the box striker. For a target man he doesn't have enough athleticism (his height is actually a little bit below average at 184cm), at least not in the Premiership. And for a stealth scorer he doesn't have good enough finishing finesse, although his positioning is top-notch. His movement and creativity and ability to cover a lot of ground will be lost if he is locked inside the box.

You might ask why than was he so successful playing up front in Holland? Well, why wouldn't he be successful when allowed two touches inside the box, against much less athletic defenders and being so intelligent and clearly a class above most of his opponents? He had all the qualities needed for a good target man in Holland, but that doesn't mean he has the qualities to be a target man on the top level.

He does have enough good qualities to be successful on top level, but in a different role. Playing withdrawn striker will take full advantage of his movement, creativity and work-rate and it will somewhat hide his problems with first touch and finishing. It would have been nice if he had more pace, but that's not a must-have for a successful second striker. Besides, if we had someone with pace (read: Torres) on the shoulder of the defender that would make through balls much more effective than if Kuyt was playing up front. So yes, I think they COULD make a good partnership with Torres, but it's Torres who should be mostly playing up front.
[/quote]

I appreciate the effort you've gone to there but this brings me back to what I said previously in the thread: some people are judging Kuyt on what they've seen from him in a Liverpool shirt; I'm judging him from what I saw in his time with Feyenoord. Of course the issue of time and space is an important one but I do not think Kuyt has done himself justice over here and I think he's capable of a lot better. I don't believe his finishing is as bad as you say it is and I think he should be given the opportunity to improve. He often looked too eager to impress last season and lacked composure in front of goal. If he can settle down then I think he might surprise a few people.

Whilst Kuyt could do a job in the link role I do not think, as you do, that it would make the most of his attributes. Whilst he does play with his head up, he is better when players are bursting past him from midfield than he is at playing intricate passes from deep. Kuyt, when asked to play high up the pitch for Feyenoord was very good at getting into goal scoring positions. He always made himself available for crosses and had an excellent balance between shooting when the time was right and passing when it wasn't. That's how he achieved such an excellent record for both goals and assists. With the likes of Torres coming from deep the defenders would have a great deal more to worry about than if Torres was up top because they know Kuyt isn't capable of joining the attack wiht a burst of speed.

Not only would you be suffocating Kuyt with such a role but you'd also be wasting one of the finest talents we've had for some time. Some people are hoping that Torres step up to a big club will magically transfrom him into an out-and-out goal scorer. I don't think this is the case. In fact, rather than wasting time trying to make him something he's not, I'd rather make the best use of his attributes. Someone with such technical ability should not be restricted to the top of the pitch. I'd much rather have him coming deep a la Henry and taking some of the responsibility off our, lets face it, less than creative midfield. He won't score as many as Henry, but I think he could have a much more devastating impact if he was more involved in the game. Leaving him camped out up top would mean he was less involved against the top teams as they would have more possession. Having him slightly deeper would allow him to link the midfield and give the likes of Gerrard/Babel/Benayoun the space to get forward. I don't think your formation allows either of the players to show their worth and I think the team would suffer for it.

All things considered though, we may be disagreeing over the attributes of the players as much as we are over their relative roles in the team.
 
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327479#msg327479 date=1185870367]
It's true, he's a bit like Luis Garcia.

He's not so interested in the bread-and-butter of the football forum, but give him half a chance in one of the less common forums and he's posting for fun.
[/quote]

Me thinks Senor Oncy will not take too kindly to this at all ;D

I foresee a detailed list breaking down numbers of posts vs number of forums very soon. ;D
 
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327602#msg327602 date=1185875560]

I appreciate the effort you've gone to there but this brings me back to what I said previously in the thread: some people are judging Kuyt on what they've seen from him in a Liverpool shirt; I'm judging him from what I saw in his time with Feyenoord. Of course the issue of time and space is an important one but I do not think Kuyt has done himself justice over here and I think he's capable of a lot better. I don't believe his finishing is as bad as you say it is and I think he should be given the opportunity to improve. He often looked too eager to impress last season and lacked composure in front of goal. If he can settle down then I think he might surprise a few people.

Whilst Kuyt could do a job in the link role I do not think, as you do, that it would make the most of his attributes. Whilst he does play with his head up, he is better when players are bursting past him from midfield than he is at playing intricate passes from deep. Kuyt, when asked to play high up the pitch for Feyenoord was very good at getting into goal scoring positions. He always made himself available for crosses and had an excellent balance between shooting when the time was right and passing when it wasn't. That's how he achieved such an excellent record for both goals and assists. With the likes of Torres coming from deep the defenders would have a great deal more to worry about than if Torres was up top because they know Kuyt isn't capable of joining the attack wiht a burst of speed.

Not only would you be suffocating Kuyt with such a role but you'd also be wasting one of the finest talents we've had for some time. Some people are hoping that Torres step up to a big club will magically transfrom him into an out-and-out goal scorer. I don't think this is the case. In fact, rather than wasting time trying to make him something he's not, I'd rather make the best use of his attributes. Someone with such technical ability should not be restricted to the top of the pitch. I'd much rather have him coming deep a la Henry and taking some of the responsibility off our, lets face it, less than creative midfield. He won't score as many as Henry, but I think he could have a much more devastating impact if he was more involved in the game. Leaving him camped out up top would mean he was less involved against the top teams as they would have more possession. Having him slightly deeper would allow him to link the midfield and give the likes of Gerrard/Babel/Benayoun the space to get forward. I don't think your formation allows either of the players to show their worth and I think the team would suffer for it.

All things considered though, we may be disagreeing over the attributes of the players as much as we are over their relative roles in the team.
[/quote]

Well, I think all arguments have been said and heard so for now we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what actually happens on the pitch. I think everybody who participated in this discussion will watch the development of our new front line with more interest and a sense of being more informed and involved then they otherwise would have been. I can't wait to see how it all turns out.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=14248.msg327449#msg327449 date=1185868050]
I am so sorry that i missed this thread yesterday.

As i firmly believe that THIS IS the best 6CM thread ever.

It has everything: Great footie debate, intelligent counter debate, anger, passion, pride, bitterness, distate, rascism, sexism, tollerance, intollerance all with a healthy dose of tongue in cheek comedy thrown in.

You all (even that tongue lolling lackwit Blackie) ought be very VERY proud of that piece of absolute fucking genius banter.

MY highlight is page 10 from Doctor macs post down to Paddy's I was literally crying.

Brilliant brilliant stuff.

Oh and it shouldnt take 16 pages for you to come to the quite correct assumption that Kuyt isnt a very good forward.....he may be a very good defensive midfielder? but goalscorer, frontman, threat......not a fucking sausage.
[/quote]

You have taken my post and worded it better, you hooligan!
 
[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=14248.msg327697#msg327697 date=1185877632]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327602#msg327602 date=1185875560]

I appreciate the effort you've gone to there but this brings me back to what I said previously in the thread: some people are judging Kuyt on what they've seen from him in a Liverpool shirt; I'm judging him from what I saw in his time with Feyenoord. Of course the issue of time and space is an important one but I do not think Kuyt has done himself justice over here and I think he's capable of a lot better. I don't believe his finishing is as bad as you say it is and I think he should be given the opportunity to improve. He often looked too eager to impress last season and lacked composure in front of goal. If he can settle down then I think he might surprise a few people.

Whilst Kuyt could do a job in the link role I do not think, as you do, that it would make the most of his attributes. Whilst he does play with his head up, he is better when players are bursting past him from midfield than he is at playing intricate passes from deep. Kuyt, when asked to play high up the pitch for Feyenoord was very good at getting into goal scoring positions. He always made himself available for crosses and had an excellent balance between shooting when the time was right and passing when it wasn't. That's how he achieved such an excellent record for both goals and assists. With the likes of Torres coming from deep the defenders would have a great deal more to worry about than if Torres was up top because they know Kuyt isn't capable of joining the attack wiht a burst of speed.

Not only would you be suffocating Kuyt with such a role but you'd also be wasting one of the finest talents we've had for some time. Some people are hoping that Torres step up to a big club will magically transfrom him into an out-and-out goal scorer. I don't think this is the case. In fact, rather than wasting time trying to make him something he's not, I'd rather make the best use of his attributes. Someone with such technical ability should not be restricted to the top of the pitch. I'd much rather have him coming deep a la Henry and taking some of the responsibility off our, lets face it, less than creative midfield. He won't score as many as Henry, but I think he could have a much more devastating impact if he was more involved in the game. Leaving him camped out up top would mean he was less involved against the top teams as they would have more possession. Having him slightly deeper would allow him to link the midfield and give the likes of Gerrard/Babel/Benayoun the space to get forward. I don't think your formation allows either of the players to show their worth and I think the team would suffer for it.

All things considered though, we may be disagreeing over the attributes of the players as much as we are over their relative roles in the team.
[/quote]

Well, I think all arguments have been said and heard so for now we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what actually happens on the pitch. I think everybody who participated in this discussion will watch the development of our new front line with more interest and a sense of being more informed and involved then they otherwise would have been. I can't wait to see how it all turns out.
[/quote]

True. Although I think robin may be right in saying that Rafa will play Torres furthest up the pitch so it may be the case that only you can be proved wrong while my observations remain nothing but a theory. I hope not, though.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=14248.msg328510#msg328510 date=1185957043]
I've been looking for this, I knew I left it somewhere.
[/quote]

Sorry Mark, it needed moving in here, i didnt want it slipping from view.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=14248.msg330146#msg330146 date=1186083106]
Thought that this thread deserves a wee compilation of Kuyt's best moments from last season-

His goal against Chavski stands out for me as a particularly good one, just because it was such an important goal I suppose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZCLQx_5ZY&mode=related&search=

C'mon Dirk- Golden Boot 07/08
[/quote]

Cheers fella, I'd forgotten how good some of those goals were..
 
Phew. Just read this all the way through. I was on holiday when it happened, and came back smugly thinking I hadn't missed anything...
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=14248.msg330146#msg330146 date=1186083106]
Thought that this thread deserves a wee compilation of Kuyt's best moments from last season-

His goal against Chavski stands out for me as a particularly good one, just because it was such an important goal I suppose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blZCLQx_5ZY&mode=related&search=

C'mon Dirk- Golden Boot 07/08
[/quote]

Good compilation but shit audio(song). Kuyt will not be too happy about this.
 
[quote author=Glock link=topic=14248.msg340960#msg340960 date=1187255854]

Kuyt will not be too happy about this.
[/quote]

Are you going to tell him Glock?
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=14248.msg326500#msg326500 date=1185785021]
I don't want to give the guy a shoeing, His goal record last season was pretty decent in the league for his first Premiership campaign, and his workrate is unquestionable.

So why do I feel a touch let down?

He's supposed to have been a step up from Crouch, someone who could do the things Crouch does but with more mobility and more goal threat. The former is perhaps true, his unselfishness proven only a week ago when he set up Agger's goal against South China. We've all wanted to see him be more selfish, but when he has, there's been little threat on the oppositions goal. His shots rarely troubled Jamo on Friday (apart from that great header) and I just never felt confident that he'd work the keeper, and even less so that he'd get a goal.

I like the lad, a true pro, he loves the club, and he works his bollocks off, all traits I like to see in a Liverpool player. I just don't feel that class and extra cutting edge is there.

This is a big season for Dirk, I hope he proves my doubts wrong.


[/quote]

You don't really like him now though. He has proven he is shite.
 
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=14248.msg397178#msg397178 date=1193616646]
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=14248.msg326500#msg326500 date=1185785021]
I don't want to give the guy a shoeing, His goal record last season was pretty decent in the league for his first Premiership campaign, and his workrate is unquestionable.

So why do I feel a touch let down?

He's supposed to have been a step up from Crouch, someone who could do the things Crouch does but with more mobility and more goal threat. The former is perhaps true, his unselfishness proven only a week ago when he set up Agger's goal against South China. We've all wanted to see him be more selfish, but when he has, there's been little threat on the oppositions goal. His shots rarely troubled Jamo on Friday (apart from that great header) and I just never felt confident that he'd work the keeper, and even less so that he'd get a goal.

I like the lad, a true pro, he loves the club, and he works his bollocks off, all traits I like to see in a Liverpool player. I just don't feel that class and extra cutting edge is there.

This is a big season for Dirk, I hope he proves my doubts wrong.


[/quote]

You don't really like him now though. He has proven he is shite.
[/quote]

Yep, very true. I still admire his work rate, but Erik Meijer worked hard too.
 
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