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I love Sadio

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I think the comparison to Torres is way off.
Torres was out of the club mentally ... he was also breaking down physically.

Let's do the same post about our GK - who's a shadow of himself, value isn't going to go up, let's get 25 million and go with Keheller.
Thiago too - we'll be lucky to get 10 million and he's even too slow for a La Liga game ... 10 million and let's go with CuJo.
and on and on.

I did say before Torres downed tools. He was physically broken and I think could be the same for Mané.

I do have issues with Alisson and his terrible fitness record for a keeper. I wouldn’t just randomly sell him and replace with Kelleher. And Thiago is shite. Curtis Jones brings more to the party than him.
 
He’s played about 140 games in the last 3 seasons.
Mentally shot and post Covid.
He’ll be back to his best next season.

His performance yesterday was affected in the end by a German ref who clearly had a personal agenda against him. No other explanation for not getting a single free kick. One of them which was pretty massive in the first half.

It wasn’t just yesterday. For a season and a half he’s been getting absolutely nothing from any ref. It’s astonishing that yesterday wasn’t given as a free kick and a red card.
 
It wasn’t just yesterday. For a season and a half he’s been getting absolutely nothing from any ref. It’s astonishing that yesterday wasn’t given as a free kick and a red card.

I think that's on Klopp.
I said that last year.
When the fucking media started going on about how Mane & Salah 'dive' etc, he should have gone ballistic because it's a fucking pisstake.
This started last year ... and hasn't stopped, and we've missed penalties (hi Newcastle) and keep on hearing, "Liverpool players could have gone down but stayed on their feet" ... Well no shit, because they don't get anything anymore even when they are fucking shoved in their back blatantly.
I would be broken if I was Mane - he gets destroyed and no protection. Amazed he hasn't been red carded this year because of this - because he must be fucking pissed.
 
Jerking those knees!

It's glaringly obvious he's cream crackered. That's all. There were a good 4-5 times last night he was caught on the back foot. And it's so out of character.

No doubt he will come good. But needs a rest for sure.
 
I think that's on Klopp.
I said that last year.
When the fucking media started going on about how Mane & Salah 'dive' etc, he should have gone ballistic because it's a fucking pisstake.
This started last year ... and hasn't stopped, and we've missed penalties (hi Newcastle) and keep on hearing, "Liverpool players could have gone down but stayed on their feet" ... Well no shit, because they don't get anything anymore even when they are fucking shoved in their back blatantly.
I would be broken if I was Mane - he gets destroyed and no protection. Amazed he hasn't been red carded this year because of this - because he must be fucking pissed.

Neither Sale or Mane get anything. Its quite insane. That shove yesterday was so blatant. Fucking hell.
 
Another argument is that Robbo is looking just as “shot” and devoid of ideas as Sadio - and I think for the same reason: way too much football with no rest. But everyone understands it and no one is saying that Robbo is “done” and should be sold. If we go out of the CL to Real and lose any realistic chance at top 4, I would just rest them both until end of the season. Play the remainder of the season with kids + maybe Salah if he wants to go for some scoring records.
 
Yeah, Robbo looks pretty much off as well.
Didnt exactly help with 3 x 90 mins for Scotland.
 
Just saw it on another thread - Robbo hasn’t created a “big chance,” let alone an assist, in the last 18 (!) games. So our left side now cannot create and the right cannot defend - so if you constantly attack and overload down our right, as more and more teams are starting to do, you eliminate the attacking threat from that side and take advantage of the defensive vulnerability. We seem to have no answer.
 
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Just saw it on another thread - Robbo hasn’t created a “big chance,” let alone an assist, in the last 18 (!) games. So our left side now cannot create and the right cannot defend - so if you constantly attack and overload down our right, as more and more teams are starting to do, you eliminate the attacking threat from that side and take advantage of the defensive vulnerability. We seem to have no answer.
Yeah I mentioned this the other day. Robbo is simply not getting forward enough and not putting in the devastating crosses he was last season.
 
Personally I'm not ready to write him off at all. He's had plenty of highlights this year but has been inconsistent and has particularly fallen off a cliff the past couple of months.

I believe this has everything to do with the way this Covid season has impacted not just him by the whole team (compounded by injuries and virtually non-stop football for 3 years). I want to see how he (and the team) react next season when back to full strength and after a proper off-season and pre-season.
 
Mane needs a bit of rest, hopefully he will get that in Villa game. After that, he needs breaks in between, he simply not able to outmuscle opponents when he has the ball.
 
but I’d sell him today if I could. He’s shot. Just like before Torres downed tools. His value isn’t going to increase so, to me, it makes football and business sense to sell.

Is what we are seeing,Not seeing from him the effects of Long- Covid..? and is that the case with Bobby Frimino too. Just like Bobby, he can bring so much to the game, I would sooner sell Salah
 
Salah is producing and Mané isn’t. Let’s be cut throat about all this. Sell.
 
He’s gone mate. Let it go.
In fairness I posted after reading your start to the tread, but having just read this it reminded me of what I was saying about Steven Gerrard two seasons before he retired...
I was saying that his legs had gone and that he needed to be replace because he could no longer play week in week out.
Got a lot of stick for that, not because I was wrong, because it was Stevie G

Maybe it is the same thing here. Because it is Mane we don't want to see it
 
Erm.. Ramadan month is around the corner. So don’t be surprised if there’ll be a dip in fitness levels, which will be understandable.
 



Three goals in 23 league games: Explaining Sadio Mane’s shocking Liverpool slump
James Pearce and Mark Carey


When Sadio Mane was asked how his Liverpool team-mates would describe him in three words he went for “happy, funny and confident”. The Senegal attacker is Jurgen Klopp’s eternal optimist. He’s usually wearing a megawatt smile that radiates positivity.
But it was replaced by a scowl during Tuesday’s chastening Champions League quarter-final first-leg defeat at the hands of Real Madrid. Mane, who didn’t have a single attempt on goal in the space of 90 minutes, endured a night to forget.
Jurgen Klopp accused German referee Felix Brych of having “something personal” against the 28-year-old after failing to penalise Lucas Vazquez for a shove on Mane just moments before Real scored their second goal. Booked shortly after for losing his rag and chopping down Vazquez, Mane retreated into his shell and his influence on the contest waned.
It wasn’t a one-off. Mane’s dwindling output has gone under the radar somewhat in the analysis of Liverpool’s struggles this season but it’s certainly a factor. Having scored 20, 26 and 22 goals in all competitions over the previous three campaigns, this time around he boasts just 12 and two of those arrived against Aston Villa’s youth side in the FA Cup.
In the Premier League, the drop-off is even starker. Mane has only netted seven times in 27 league matches in 2020-21. He has gone eight league games without a goal since the win away to Tottenham Hotspur in January and has only scored three in his last 23 league appearances dating back to October — a crazy statistic for a player of his calibre.
Less than 18 months ago, Lionel Messi voted for Mane in the FIFA World Player of the Year awards and insisted the 2019 African Footballer of the Year was unfortunate to finish fourth in the Ballon d’Or behind him, Virgil van Dijk and Cristiano Ronaldo.
His development under Klopp since his £34 million move from Southampton in the summer of 2016 had been constant. He’s put himself firmly in the world-class bracket. He shared the Premier League golden boot with team-mate Mohamed Salah and Arsenal’s Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang, with 22 league goals in 2018-19 — an achievement all the more commendable considering he doesn’t take penalties.
Mane was equally as impressive on Liverpool’s march to Premier League title glory with 18 league goals and a flying start to this season, which included match-winning performances against Chelsea and Arsenal, fuelled the debate over whether he was arguably Klopp’s most valuable attacker.
However, in testing circumstances, it’s been Salah rather than Mane who has consistently delivered the goods to keep the club’s season alive. The Egyptian has led the way with 27 goals in all competitions, including 18 in the league. Even taking into account Salah’s seven penalties, that’s some gap between their respective tallies given that, in recent years, they have largely matched each other with their displays of attacking brilliance.
So why the drop-off for Mane? Is he missing more chances or is he just not getting them? Have his standards slipped or is he a victim of circumstances beyond his control?

First, to explore the change in Mane’s performances this season compared to last season, we can look at his smarterscout profile. Smarterscout is a tool that uses advanced metrics to give players a rating from zero to 99, based on either how often they perform a specific action and their effectiveness in various actions, compared to others playing their position.
pizza_sadio_mane_LW_2019-20.png

Overall, his stylistic profile is similar to 2019-20, but there are some interesting differences between last season, above, and this season, below. The first difference is that he is more likely to dribble with the ball this season (carry and dribble volume: 83 out of 99) and a little less likely to play a short, simple pass (link-up play volume: 69 out of 99). Indeed, his 5.3 take-ons per 90 is the highest he has attempted since his debut season at Liverpool (5.5 take-ons per 90 in 2016-17).
pizza_sadio_mane_LW_2020-21.png

It suggests that despite Liverpool’s struggles in recent months, Mane has not shied away from getting on the ball to try to make things happen. However, his lower rating for ball retention ability this season (56 out of 99) highlights that he’s giving possession away more often. By looking to go alone more and perhaps force the issue at times, he’s losing the ball as a consequence.
The second difference is actually an increase in Mane’s shot volume this season (82 out of 99). Here, smarterscout measures shot volume as the propensity to shoot per total touches of the ball.
If we look at Mane’s shot map from last season, he averaged 2.5 shots per 90. The average quality of those shots (xG per shot) was 0.18, meaning the chances he got would be worthy of one goal every five shots — the joint-highest in the league for a wide forward alongside Raheem Sterling.
sadio_mane_2019-20_all_shots.png

This season’s shot map suggests Mane’s performances in front of goal have not exactly fallen off a cliff. The notable difference is that he is indeed shooting more (3.0 shots per 90) but the average quality of his shots is slightly lower (0.14 xG per shot) — still good enough for the fifth-highest in the league for a wide forward.
sadio_mane_2020-21_all_shots.png

Furthermore, he is actually taking more touches in the penalty area per 90 minutes this season compared with last season. This might be influenced by the fact that Liverpool have been facing a lot of deep-lying defences and have been chasing games so often since the turn of the year, but it still shows that he is involved in the attack as much as he ever has been.
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Taken together, it appears as though Mane’s underlying numbers have not significantly faltered this season. His 0.43 expected goals (xG) per 90 minutes is the highest for any wide forward in the Premier League, meaning his chances are worthy of nearly one goal every two games — no different to last season. Put simply, he is still getting into great areas and having high-quality chances to score.
However, the problem lies in his conversion this season. Mane comfortably exceeded his xG in the past two seasons, with 0.64 non-penalty goals per 90 in 2018-19 (from 0.44 xG) and 0.59 non-penalty goals per 90 in 2019-20 (from 0.45 xG). However, this time around, that figure has slumped to 0.28 non-penalty goals per 90. Put another way, Mane averaged a Premier League goal every 140 minutes in 2018-19 and every 153 minutes in 2019-20. This season he’s averaging one every 323 minutes. Diogo Jota has outscored him in the league despite playing 1,530 fewer top-flight minutes.
mane_pl.png

This is the most that Mane has underperformed against his xG since he arrived at Liverpool nearly five years ago. For context, only Chelsea’s Timo Werner and Aston Villa’s Trezeguet have underperformed their xG more than Mane this season among wide forwards in the Premier League.
The graphic below acts to represent Mane’s form in front of goal, showing when he is scoring at a higher or lower rate than expected. To do this, we take a rolling average of the past five games he has played and trend this over time to see when there are peaks and troughs in his performance. We can see that Mane’s slump has been most stark in recent months, coinciding with Liverpool’s disastrous run of results following the turn of the year that saw them go from top spot to the fringes of the top-four race.
mane_xg_timeline_annotate.png

He has certainly suffered from the lack of fluency and tempo in the team’s attacking play. The upheaval due to the injuries at centre-back has led to Klopp’s full-backs not being able to fly forward with the same regularity. As a result, Mane’s partnership with Andrew Robertson down the left flank hasn’t looked as threatening. The interplay between them hasn’t been as incisive.
Fatigue is bound to be an issue. Robertson leads the way in terms of Premier League minutes this season with 2,666. Mane is fifth among the Liverpool players on 2,260 behind Salah (2,434), Georginio Wijnaldum (2,363) and Trent Alexander-Arnold (2,313).
However, the mental side is arguably more significant than the physical. Having worked so hard to improve his finishing with extra drills after training in recent years, the lack of goals this season has started to prey on Mane’s mind.
At times he’s been guilty of snatching at chances or over-thinking when openings have come his way. Staff at the AXA Training Centre also believe he’s been on the receiving end of some unfair treatment and as a result, his confidence has been dented.
Southampton away in early January was one example. Mane was convinced that he should have had a penalty after being brought down by Kyle Walker-Peters but his protests were ignored. “What Andre Marriner did with Sadio Mane tonight, I’m not sure that’s OK, to be honest,” said Klopp, who was furious that other challenges against Mane also went unpunished at St Mary’s.
Mane was criticised by pundits for going down too easily, five days after staying on his feet and not winning a penalty when Newcastle goalkeeper Karl Darlow grabbed his leg during a goalmouth scramble at St James’ Park.
There were similar incidents against Sheffield United, Chelsea and Wolverhampton Wanderers when he was clipped inside the box but didn’t go down as he tried in vain to score. Staff were baffled by Michael Owen’s bizarre suggestion that Mane’s motivation was that he didn’t want Salah widening the goalscoring gap between them from the penalty spot.
“You won’t find a more selfless or honest footballer than Sadio,” one senior club source tells The Athletic. “Everything he does is for the team. It’s just difficult for anyone to take when you get criticised for staying on your feet when you’re fouled and then criticised for going down when there’s clearly contact.”
Pep Guardiola labelled Mane a “diver” last season and there’s a fear that he’s been unfairly judged by officials since.
At times, Mane has been unfortunate. At home to Tottenham, he expertly rolled away from Serge Aurier and hammered against the bar. He also saw a looping header against Fulham strike the post. Against Manchester United, referee Paul Tierney blew up early for half-time when Mane had been put through on goal by Xherdan Shaqiri’s pass.
But on other occasions, he has been horribly wasteful. In last month’s defeat by Chelsea, he should have restored parity from Salah’s inviting cross but after timing his run perfectly, he completely fluffed his kick.
There were two neat finishes in each leg of the Champions League last-16 tie against RB Leipzig but he hasn’t been able to break a three-month domestic drought. He could have had a hat-trick against Wolves recently but fluffed his lines.
The goals may have dried up but Mane’s intensity out of possession remains unchanged. He presses from the front as much as ever. His 7.5 pressures per 90 minutes in the attacking third are a carbon copy of last season.
He is also getting a foot in as frequently as before. When adjusted for possession (per 1,000 opponent touches), Mane’s 5.0 “true” tackles — which includes tackles plus challenges lost plus fouls committed — is the fifth-highest of any wide forward in the league this season. Put simply, this isn’t down to a lack of effort. If anything, he’s been guilty of trying too hard and composure in front of goal has largely deserted him.
“When you are a fighter you never try to make excuses, we are here to find solutions,” Mane said recently. “Being together with my team-mates always gives me high energy. There is the attitude and belief that everything will change. Stick together, be positive and fight. I am more proud than ever to be a Liverpool player.”
This is the first real downturn of Mane’s Liverpool career but he’s too good for it to last. His back story is a tale of triumphing in the face of adversity so his strength of character is undisputable. So is his talent, humility and work ethic.
The challenge for Klopp is to help lift the weight off Mane’s shoulders to get the goals flowing again.
 
Thanks a lot, @the count. Yeah, the numbers bear out what we see - Mane doesn’t lack effort, is still getting in dangerous positions, but his scoring touch has deserted him. That looks very much reversible.

And the one thing where a manager has to step in and adjust his game is the part about dribbling way more and passing less - this is something we can see with the naked eye too; he’s become too predictable as he will ALWAYS run at the defender when he also has an option to pass. Correct this and give him some time to recharge and he should be back to world class next season.
 
I think there is a narrow focus view of Mane, sure he doesn't look like the Mane of last season but c'mon who in this team still looks as good as they did last season? Ill give you Salah and maybe Fabinho but even those players have had a few horror games where they have been below their best...Every individual in our team looks somewhat tired and laboured not just Mane.

For me the big picture view is that we have lost our best central defenders, and because of this it has altered the dynamics of the team. Mane now is probably doing more defending and playing deeper than he did before, this is ok for a game or two but since the injury crisis, Mane has been doing this game in game out pressing and defending more so than he's ever had to do since we bought VVD. It takes a toll on you eventually...What we need is for the system to get fixed, and that isn't going to happen before we get new defenders in the summer or VVD and Gomes comes back. No need to throw the baby out of the bathwater!
 
Salah is producing and Mané isn’t. Let’s be cut throat about all this. Sell.

Robertson has not exactly been his vintage best either let's start a thread about selling him as well maybe and anyone else who isn't matching up to their peak levels of last season?
 
Yep. The LW is also Jotas preferred position so it goes without saying. It also gives Jota the perfect starting point to get on the end of Trents crosses, which is a combination we need to see more and more of. Jotas heading stats are right up there.
 
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