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United post-match

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rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member
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Overall I'm not too disappointed. You cannot dominate every one of the 38 EPL games or have a perfect winning plan for each – there is too much quality in the opposition, particularly when you're playing teams like Man United.

Mourinho clearly spent a lot of time dissecting our game and drilling his plan into the players; his team selection was clearly "anti-Liverpool 11" rather than "Man United." Two things were key: 1) they almost entirely eliminated the type of build-up passing that could be trapped by our pressure (the couple of times United players failed to heed those instructions and played "normally", we pressed and won the ball straight away), and 2) they made our build-up play as uncomfortable as possible by pushing Pogba up front together with Ibrahimovic to lurk between our defenders, while all other players marked potential recipients of the ball 1-on-1. The downside of this for United was that their own game was severely disrupted as well – that's why they ended with 35% possession and very few genuine chances, despite some stellar attacking talent on the pitch and on the bench. That's what often happens when you build your team around the opponent's strength rather than your own.

How did our players reacted to Mourinho's plan? Not too good, but it could have been worse. The back 5 and Henderson (dropping between CBs when starting attacks) were of course quite inconvenienced by United's high press, but still sufficiently calm and composed to avoid big mistakes (other than Karius's awful pass, where he was bailed out by offside). I have to defend Karius a bit here: sure he doesn't look settled in the team yet and even his distribution doesn't look all that great at the moment, but you just have to look at how often the likes of Neuer, Ter Stegen and Bravo make serious mistakes to appreciate how difficult it is even for the best sweeper-keeper when his team is under high press. Despite some heart-in-mouth moments, overall I think Karius passed this test. For sure with Mignolet in goal our build-up play would have suffered even more.

Our midfield and attack had an equally difficult task – how to play our normal quick passing game with inconsistent supply from the back and through tight spaces guarded by disciplined and physical United players. Overall you have to say they failed to fulfill this task and that’s why Klopp was unhappy with the performance. Let's talk some individuals:

Coutinho and Firmino – I think both played with real creativity and inspiration and worked very hard in defense too. The only problem was they were not getting the ball in dangerous areas with enough regularity.
Can – very rusty in the first 30 minutes, mentally just not on the same wavelength as his teammates. But he gradually grew in confidence and by the end of the game was his usual swag self. Don't forget he was playing in a different position than the one he settled in last season – him and Hendo have now reversed roles and that could also have been a factor in the initial confusion.
Mane – strangely subdued and never tested Blind for speed. Don't know what to make of this performance.
Sturridge – I'm growing more worried about him with each game. He doesn't make sprints, doesn't run in behind, still scoreless in the league and didn't look like scoring at any point in this game.
Lallana – changed the game after his introduction and showed how much we missed him.

To our players' credit, eventually they did manage to push United back and find their rhythm, particularly after Lallana came on. So this game gives me grounds for optimism – sure, we struggled to break down a 500 million team executing a plan designed specifically against our style of play by probably the best manager in the game at designing such plans, but in the end we did not lose and we created 2 great chances to win. As for United, for all Mourinho's smug talk about neutralizing the "last wonder of the world" as he put it, the fact is the leagues are not usually won by reactive football. I would much rather be in Klopp's position – disappointed that we couldn't overcome a plucky opponent, than congratulating himself on stopping another team, like Mourinho.
 
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The first 20 mins gave a misleading impression of Maureen's tactics basically because we were so shit. It looked like they might have come to play but as soon as we got the ball even in that period they resorted to 10 men behind the ball.

I reckon if they'd been more positive they probably could have at least taken the lead given we didn't really turn up. After 20 mins they went into their shells and that was pretty much it.
 
We're doing fine. The one worry I have is how far off our normal game we looked with just two 'best 11' players out. We have individual strength in depth but how many can actually play to Klopp's system?
 
I wonder if we'll go all out for a world class(ish) mobile striker in January. We could sure do with one.
 
I wonder if we'll go all out for a world class(ish) mobile striker in January. We could sure do with one.

We were saying this during the game last night, Sturridge will be off in the Summer I reckon, which is a shame, but I think Klopp needs a truly top class striker and while Sturridge has alot of history and the potential to come good again, we're lucky if we're getting 60 minutes out of him at the minute and what he does offer is a shadow of what he once did. I hope he stays and by the end of the season he's close to where he was, but he's 27 now and age and injuries aren't really on his side. Either way I think Klopp will by a top attacker sooner rather than later.
 
Honestly it was a gutting night, but it's still a point against United, it's par more than dropping point I suppose. I'm also encouraged because I believe if we were to play that game again we'd win, our old mental fragilities showed last night, but I think seeing how much United feared us, and make no mistake, Mourinho was clearly shit scared of us, his tactics, last wonder of the world comment and insistence to correct the possession stats shows that, I think seeing that from a United side will help boost our belief no end. We'd have learnt a lot from that game, it was our worst performance outside of Burnley and we were still the more likely to win, so I think in the long term it's not a negative result, it just feels like a massive missed opportunity right now.
 
Oh, and similar to the Balotelli Sturridge plan, could we harvest Lucas for spare parts for Lallana? I don't want to see him out of the starting eleven anytime soon.
 
Thinking about the result I'm curiously pleased that we feel temporary frustration. Our excitement and exuberance versus their grim satisfaction seems to be the verdict of the neutrals.

If I were one of the Old Trafford hierarchy I'd be concerned that my celebrity manager and expensively assembled all stars weren't capable of anything more than suffocating the opposition.

I think we'll be an even more determined and dangerous team as the season goes on as we now have the reassurance that other teams are treating us as a real threat. Klopp does seem to have installed some ambition and belief within our squad even if our level of craft is yet to match it.

I thought that I was just trying to mitigate a feeling of disappointment, but even I, for all my caution, think we're improving to the extent that we see Manchester United in the same light as those unfancied teams that turn up to try to limit damage and hope for a lucky break.
 
Sturridge is trying his damndest to adjust to this system & is spending a LOT of time tracking back & pressing (ok, trying to press, but failing most of the time).

Thing is he's not very good at it though. It's not even remotely his natural game, & it's stifling his ability to run off the shoulder of the defender almost completely, so he's rarely in the positions he normally scores from.

When he is he doesn't seem quite as sharp. Whether that's injury related or not I'm not sure, but I know athletes of any kind train one way to promote explosive pace from their muscles, & another to get their bodies trained for long distance & time events. I wonder if that pace is being stolen because he's training to cover distance for ninety minutes as opposed to burst of explosive pace.

As for the game, I'm not pissed off. I'm mildly annoyed, but after ten or fifteen minutes I was convinced we'd be beaten.

Yeah its annoying cos we started to create chances second half & that Chelsea side are nothing special, but as I said in the match thread, Mourinho has beaten better sides than ours last night using the same anti-tactics.
 
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@EricIdle: Sorry I raced to the pub for the Liverpool game. I had forgotten that dull shit Mourhino was in charge.
 
Text from an Arsenal supporting friend:

"If Mourinho had directed Die Hard it'd be 90 minutes of Bruce Willis hiding in a cupboard, then have everyone applauding his tactics for not getting shot."
Ha ha ! I'm going to use that ;)
 
What's the general consensus among United fans? Thankfully I don't know too many of them.

I'd be furious if I was a Man Utd fan and was being served up this shit after Moyes and Van Gaal, and after spending 100 million on one player, as well as god knows how much more on the rest. It's tragic.

I briefly listened to Danny Higginbottom on TalkSport before and he was going along with the adopted narrative that Mourinho is a genius etc etc, that this United team is in a state of decline and is in the process of being rebuilt. But that's a load of shit, isn't it? Man Utd play turgid, negative football because they have a turgid, negative manager. They're not going to suddenly click and blow teams away week in, week out. Playing a back 6, playing Rashford as a second right back, Pogba as a second Fellaini, eleven men behind the ball, all of that at your most-hated rivals in a game under the lights. God, you'd be furious. Imagine what Pulis could do with £300 million. Imagine what Klopp could do with £300 million in the time Mourinho has had there. It was all very defeatist, and as much as I dislike the Mancs, I hope on a basic human level that they're not content with that shite last night.
 
We're doing fine. The one worry I have is how far off our normal game we looked with just two 'best 11' players out. We have individual strength in depth but how many can actually play to Klopp's system?
That bit doesn't worry me Lefty. I'm pretty sure they all can. Can was off the pace due to a lack of match time but we saw how he really got into it when he settled down after 30 mins or so. Even at the end of the 1st half we were well on top, before Lallana made an appearance. And this against a 500m team not most of the PL.

I do think we are more likely to see Ings and Origi. The end could well be nigh for Sturridge at Liverpool.
 
I wonder if we'll go all out for a world class(ish) mobile striker in January. We could sure do with one.

Icardi could be on his way out from Inter if the internal conflict with the fans continue. Sell Studge and get him.
 
I fear we will have to get used to these tactics from the opposition at home from now on, their spoiling tactics worked. Pulis will have had a hard on watching that, cue more anti football playing for free kicks on Saturday.

On the plus side, two headers aside, I thought our defence did well. Ibrahimavic couldn't hold up the ball and Pogba couldn't have looked less like a worldbeater.
 
What's the general consensus among United fans? Thankfully I don't know too many of them.

I'd be furious if I was a Man Utd fan and was being served up this shit after Moyes and Van Gaal, and after spending 100 million on one player, as well as god knows how much more on the rest. It's tragic.

I briefly listened to Danny Higginbottom on TalkSport before and he was going along with the adopted narrative that Mourinho is a genius etc etc, that this United team is in a state of decline and is in the process of being rebuilt. But that's a load of shit, isn't it? Man Utd play turgid, negative football because they have a turgid, negative manager. They're not going to suddenly click and blow teams away week in, week out. Playing a back 6, playing Rashford as a second right back, Pogba as a second Fellaini, eleven men behind the ball, all of that at your most-hated rivals in a game under the lights. God, you'd be furious. Imagine what Pulis could do with £300 million. Imagine what Klopp could do with £300 million in the time Mourinho has had there. It was all very defeatist, and as much as I dislike the Mancs, I hope on a basic human level that they're not content with that shite last night.

Yeah, the general consensus among my Manc supporting mates is that he was to negative and thats not the way they want to play football.
 
I always think matches against Manchester United are affected more by nerves and tension than other games and often lessens composure. I don't think WBA will have the same effect. I'm hoping for a big reaction and for our front six to cause them real problems. We should be difficult to contain for 90'.
 
I didn't want to say anything during the game through fear of jinxing it, but Pogba must be furious having to play under Mourinho. He's arrived amid all this fanfare, attention I'm sure his massive ego craves, and he has looked distinctly average. He needs to play further forward and not be stifled by negative tactics, and while Mourinho did play him further forward last night, it was basically to win flick ons. I can see things turning sour there if they don't change soon. I actually don't think Mourinho knows how to use him.
 
Hmm frustrating game. They essentially started the game with the intention of grabbing an early goal. It certainly startled us but once we settled down and stopped misplacing simple passes they retreated back into their hole like a trembling wounded badger. Mourinho deserves a lot of negative press after that display.. imagine having a squad that expensive and trying to somehow convince everyone that it was an amazing achievement. Fucking anti football motherfucker! Benitez used to get so much shit from pundits because he favoured a defensive approach but I can't recall us ever playing so negatively for a league game (obviously cup games are different). The funny thing is... I reckon Mourinho could have fucking killed us today with long throws and long floated freekicks. I saw them earlier in the year adopt that tactic and its very hard to beat Zlatan, Fellaini and Pogba in the air. All they needed was a fortunate knock down and guaranteed one of our lads would panic and fuck up. Karius was begging to sodomized by long throws.

So, a few things. Karius looks terrified .. a new GK coach is required as it's a common feature amongst our keepers. Both were actually praised at their previous clubs for being cool and calm. I don't know if the post match review process is too detailed but something is very wrong. Whenever the ball goes back him he seems to get it caught between his legs...he has a horrible knack of passing it short to players who are obviously trapped. He is either a bit dense or is completely overwhelmed and unable to process things clearly.

Firmino and Can were incredibly frustrating in the first half and were so wasteful in possession. Firmino tried so many pointless fancy flicks to no one.

Wijnaldum is not worthy of some of the praise he's been receiving. Sure, he's got quality but so far he's been consistently average.

Sturridge is so frustrating to watch when he's isolated. He's so fucking slow to everything, rarely fights for 50-50's and defenders can be confident that he's not going to harass or try and rough them up. Suarez created so much for himself and for others by fighting for balls that Sturridge simply views as a lost cause and a waste of energy. I get that's how he plays but sometimes we need a little more. He'd be amazing in Spain, France or Italy where he can play that poacher role, strutting around the field, occasionally dropping deep if he can be fucked to play a one two. He'd then wonder back upfield wait for the right opportunity to do the bare minimum to finish off a tap in.

Coutinho is extremely important for us in games where the opposition are well drilled. He is very good at changing up and shifting our patterns of play. Sometimes we can be so painfully obvious .. He has the potential to be world class and this season he looks like a man that has supreme confidence in his role and our system.

I'm happy that we didn't lose our shape and risk being caught on the counter attack in the last 20 minutes. We opened them up a few times and could have snatched it. Losing to a late counter attack and hearing Mourinho praise his special talent would be unbearable.
 
To anyone at the match last night, what was the atmosphere like? It sounded very flat watching on TV which surprised me.
 
Is Ings a more natural fit than Sturridge, I think he closes down better than Origi & Sturridge.

I would like to see him back on the bench soon surly he is nearing fitness he has had a few run outs for the u23's.
 
Text from an Arsenal supporting friend:

"If Mourinho had directed Die Hard it'd be 90 minutes of Bruce Willis hiding in a cupboard, then have everyone applauding his tactics for not getting shot."

Had to knock 16 characters off this to put it on twitter.
 
-I thought Karius looked very uncomfortable again, and his distribution was hit and miss. I hope we've not got to go looking for a 3rd keeper ffs

-The defence I thought was pretty good, didn't really struggle with a poor offensive utd team

-Midfield I thought was sloppy the first half, loads and loads of poor passes from all of them. 2nd half we were much better. Can's not fit, but I can see why he didn't put Milner there as he can't trust Moreno.

-We offered virtually no genuine goal threat the entire game apart from the reaction shot from Can and a long-ranger from Coutinho. We really struggled to break down the bus, which was to be expected, although I think we went about it the right way the 2nd half - pull them out wide to make space in the middle over and over again. Just a very good defensive performance from them. Sturridge doesn't fit Klopp's system, and to be fair, he's never looked the same player since Suarez went, fitness or not.

-Pogba looks absolutely nothing like a 90mill player, and there doesn't even seem to be a glimmer that he will be from the games I've seen of him this year (about 4-5 full games). He was totally inconsistent in Italy and it looks like they've panic bought him into a system he doesn't fit here. Couldn't have happened to a nicer club.
 
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