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Klopp's deja-vu

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rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
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In 2011-12 season Klopp's Borussia Dortmund returned to the Champions League for the first time after an 8 or 9 year absence. Dortmund had already won the Bundesliga title the year before; they were a superb team collectively as well as individually – one only had to take look at the names of players who started their first CL match: Weidenfeller, Hummels, Subotic, Schmelzer, Piszczek, Sven Bender, Kehl (captain), Gotze, Kagawa, Grosskreutz, Lewandowski. The likes of Gundogan and Perisic were on the bench. It was an uber-talented, mature and confident team. Or so it seemed.

Borussia got a relatively easy draw with Arsenal, Marseille and Olympiakos – everyone expected the champions of Germany to do no worse than runner-up of the group, even considering the lack of Champions League experience. The first game – a 1:1 home draw against main group rivals Arsenal – seemed encouraging enough, Dortmund created the lion's share of chances (15 shots on goal vs 5) and only their profligacy in front of goal prevented them from taking all 3 points. The 2nd game was a complete shock – 0:3 defeat in Marseille, despite dominating the chances and possession even more thoroughly than in the first game. Marseille seemed to score in every meaningful attack, while the likes of Lewandowski, Gotze and Kagawa kept inexplicably missing chance after chance after chance. (Starting to sound familiar?)

I wish I could say that after those 2 games, Klopp and his team turned it around, players rediscovered their confidence in front of goal and they made it out of the group despite a difficult start. That did not happen – the young and uber-talented Dortmund team (who had successfully defended their Bundesliga title that season as well as won the German cup, blowing away Bayern Munich in the final) seem to lose all confidence playing against objectively inferior opponents in European competition. I watched some of these Champions League games and it was utterly mystifying – the players looked just as good as they did when beating up domestic opponents, they were not lacking in passion and desire and on the surface didn't seem more nervous than usual – yet somehow the crucial moments always went against them, they just couldn't convert the multitude of chances they were creating. In defense the normally fairly reliable Hummels, Weidenfeller and co. always seemed to gift a goal or two to the opposition and those weaknesses at both ends of the pitch were reinforcing each other and creating a vicious cycle. Dortmund lost the rest of their CL group games, except a nerve-wracking 1:0 home win against Olympiakos, where they were actually mostly outplayed, but paradoxically that was the only game they won in CL that year.

The parallels to this season are clear – we also have a team comprised of talented and exciting players without much winning experience (individually or together) and some of our problems, like a string of games where we just can't convert great chances to goals, look and feel familiar to anyone who closely followed Klopp at Dortmund. The bad news is that he couldn't turn it around in the CL that season – the "missing easy chances/conceding stupid goals" malaise continued until they crashed out. The good news was that next season the same team + Marco Reus, who was bought in the summer of 2012, used that negative experience from the previous season to go all the way to the Champions League final, while spectacularly outplaying the likes of Real Madrid. So what was wrong with these players in 2011? My guess is, it was simply too early for them – Champions League is a unique competition and it takes teams who are not regularly competing at that level a season or two to get acclimatized to the whole thing and that lack of familiarity can affect even the most talented players. Probably there is not much a manager can do in this situation other than to keep trying again and again, until at some point the players suddenly develop a "feel" for it. And as fans, I'm afraid, we have no choice other than to do the same – keep rooting for success, keep getting frustrated when it doesn't come, keep picking ourselves off the floor to try again and again.
 
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If Klopp's deja-vu means we bow out of the CL early, but win the league & FA Cup, I could, just about, live with that
 
I'm getting deja-vu every time we play as we always manage to concede a goal due to poor defending or poor goalkeeping and the amount of easy chances we miss is ridiculous.
 
Myguess is, it was simply too early for them – Champions League is a unique competition and it takes teams who are not regularlycompeting at that level a season or two to get acclimatized to the whole thing and that lack of familiarity can affect even the most talented players.

That explains why Spurs have... Hang on!
 
I think we're just shit at playing football.
LOL. I think we are shit at making decisions in front of goal and we cannot switch between attack mindedness to defence mind in the speed required. We have tuning issues.

Having said that ... the issues have always been their in front of goal. Last year early on when we were scoring for fun we had that same issue but were lucky to score early on.
 
The simialrties are worrying and does it make you wonder what klopps approach is to these games…..what doe he tell the players are both teams seem to have exactly the same mistakes. No lessons learnt.
 
What should he have to tell them? See that rectangle with white posts and a net? Try hitting the ball into it and not at the bloke in front of it!

If the players did the very basics right then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 
That wasn't miserable defending. Then was Can being a tit
I wasn't really talking about the defending from last night's game as we had so little of it to do but you're right that Can was a tit, playing a blind pass back towards your own goal usually spells disaster.
 
What should he have to tell them? See that rectangle with white posts and a net? Try hitting the ball into it and not at the bloke in front of it!

If the players did the very basics right then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
The more central our players are when they shoot or head towards goal the less likely it is to go towards the corner of the goal. The keeper is usually in the middle so they should avoid that area the useless bellends.
 
Way too early to characterise our position as a deja vu of Dortmund. We didn't just lose 3-0 against the 2nd best team in the group for a start.

It may be difficult, but not improbable, for us to finish top of the group but we are in pole position to be 2nd.

We are going through a patch where nothing is falling for us but the overall performances are still pretty good. We will start to click soon and watch us fly then, have faith.
 
Agreed. The arrival of Keita (and hopefully van Dijk as well, perhaps even in January) is obv.central to the plan and will help a great deal, but meanwhile we're still well in the hunt.
 
Way too early to characterise our position as a deja vu of Dortmund. We didn't just lose 3-0 against the 2nd best team in the group for a start.

It may be difficult, but not improbable, for us to finish top of the group but we are in pole position to be 2nd.

We are going through a patch where nothing is falling for us but the overall performances are still pretty good. We will start to click soon and watch us fly then, have faith.
This isn't a 'patch', they are just poor in front of goal. Its not going to change until he changes personnel.
 
I agree with beejay. A club whose players who are "just poor in front of goal" don't have the Goals For record we've got.
 
This isn't a 'patch', they are just poor in front of goal. Its not going to change until he changes personnel.


Poor in front of goal?

Fuck me... when I lived I tokky ther was a lot of drugs but it's clearly got fucking worse since I left.
 
I agree with beejay. A club whose players who are "just poor in front of goal" don't have the Goals For record we've got.
Law of averages. If you keep creating loads of chances you are going to score eventually. We miss too many chances per game, that can't be disputed surely. We have no one who is clinical in front of goal.
 
You're obviously still on the drugs if you think we are clinical in front of goal.

Nah I just think I'm getting fucking tired of reading fucking overtly constantly negative fucking bullshit whinging written by meffs... that said I did used to enjoy drugs a lot ... many moons ago.... happy days...
 
I don't think people got the key point of my post – maybe I should have spelled it out more clearly. The reason we are missing chances is not necessarily because Coutinho, Salah, Firmino, Mane and Sturridge are not clinical enough finishers. The likes of Lewandowski and Gotze are generally as clinical as they come, but they and their teammates were just as profligate as our players in Dortmund's first season in CL under Klopp. So maybe the problem is somewhere else and maybe buying fucking Jamie Vardy is NOT the solution.
 
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Nah I just think I'm getting fucking tired of reading fucking overtly constantly negative fucking bullshit whinging written by meffs... that said I did used to enjoy drugs a lot ... many moons ago.... happy days...
So 121 shots on goal in the last 6 games with only 6 goals to show for it isn't poor to You? C'mon now. I love our attack, but our finishing is poor. If it wasn't we'd have won most of our games.

Nothing wrong with a bit of drugs until you start hallucinating that a 6ft big Mac is chasing after you with a sword......yeah me screaming Down the street wasn't a pretty sight.
 
I don't think people got the key point of my post – maybe I should have spelled it out more clearly. The reason we are missing chances is not necessarily because Coutinho, Salah, Firmino, Mane and Sturridge are not clinical enough finishers. The likes of Lewandowski and Gotze are as clinical as they come, but they and their teammates were just as profligate in Dortmund's first season in CL under Klopp. So maybe the problem is somewhere else and maybe buying fucking Jamie Vardy is NOT the solution.

I think I get what you're saying (and Heaven knows your English is better than my Ukrainian) but "profligate" actually means "wasteful".
 
I think I get what you're saying (and Heaven knows your English is better than my Ukrainian) but "profligate" actually means "wasteful".

Is that a whoosh? I meant that Lewandowski and Gotze were profligate i.e. wasteful in Klopp's first Cl with Dortmund.

EDIT: I adjusted the post above for clarity
 
Gotcha. I'd add only that Dortmund's defensive record improved at the same time as the forward players began to hit the net, which also supports your argument.
 
I think we need to look at how to score now - to me sometimes it feels like too many options and overcrowding is a problem up front. We are up against defences that pack their back line. In such circumstances there is really only one option - which at times was shown by the young TAA:-

1) One of the front players really needs to take it on with a defender by running directly at him and to draw out the other defenders to create the space. It is those individual moments that open up cracks in a parked bus type defence.

2) Free kicks in spaces where Coutinho or other of our specialists have a chance.

3) play the waiting game a bit to mix it up so don't attack all the time - let them have the ball and have Salah/Mane on standby to run onto a long/through ball when they are not bus parked.

right now every game feels like the 'Slip' game against Chelsea - players crowding the opposition penalty area and taking speculative soft shots at goal with no purpose or relevant aggression. At the moment we are not creating the scenario's like above enough of the time - where we can say 'yes' thats a great chance. What we have are chances because we are in their penalty space but at no point do we look like 'actually' scoring - its more 'wow' - even the chances that fell to Sturridge last night - they were those type of chances where he had to score in an instant in a tight space - no time to compose himself etc..
 
So 121 shots on goal in the last 6 games with only 6 goals to show for it isn't poor to You? C'mon now. I love our attack, but our finishing is poor. If it wasn't we'd have won most of our games.

Nothing wrong with a bit of drugs until you start hallucinating that a 6ft big Mac is chasing after you with a sword......yeah me screaming Down the street wasn't a pretty sight.

To be fair screaming while running away from a 6ft tall sword carrying big mac is a sensible action I doubt the burger could run that fast and the screams can help warn others of the clear danger in the surroundings.
 
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