Klopp at Dortmund

[Frogfish]

Taken from a German (Dortmund fan) posting on another forum. Interesting read even if only a fan's opinion.

I have to wonder how little people might think of the Bundesliga coaches. If they needed four full seasons tp adapt to a pressing intensive transtition style, they can´t be that stellar. Good thing fpr them is that this was not the case.

The only season Klopp really took the league off guard with his playing style was the league winning 2010/2011 season. After that clubs already started to play way more reactive vs. them. This was alongside the departure of key player Şahin the main reason why they struggled pretty heavily in the first season half of the 2011/2012 season, when they basically had to rely on a 19 year old mega talent to create things out of thin air. In the second season half they went on an extremely strong run and the momentum of it carried them even beyond the end of the season.

By the time the 2012/2013 season came along, 80% of the national opponents started out in a very defensive, reactive sometimes even destructive way. From this point on Klopp´s focus was not on the execution of his prefered system, but on finding tools to force said system onto the opposition ergo forcing them to become more active. The first thing he did to archive that was by starting out games with immense pressure to hit them before they became fully organized. They had an extremely good scoring record in the first 20 minutes that season and especially Reus functioned as door opener (nearly a dozen of his league goals were 1:0´s). Being down one goal early most teams had no other choice but to become more offensive minded vs. them and conceed the necessary space for Klopp´s counter attacking to work.

In the following season Klopp put a lot of emphasis on set pieces, which lead to them being the league´s most successful team in that regard by a good margin. And just like the season before these goals forced the opposition to become more open.

In his last season at Dortmund probably the biggest reason for the horrible first season half was that he did not find the tools to make his style viable. The set pieces did not work like they used to be, Reus was plagued with injuries and the Hummels-Lewandowski combination was gone. Even worse was that even when the opponent allowed Klopp to play his style, the execution of it was incredible lacklustre.

Just like at Dortmund, Klopp at Liverpool has to find the ways to make his playing system viable and effective. This will be his biggest task. The opponents will adapt and try to counter act his system and they will do so faster than many realize.

 

[Judge Jules]

Wow. Decent tho' my German is, this guy's English is incredible - better than most of ours, I'll bet.

I remain optimistic about us under Klopp. it's one thing to work out how to counteract an opponent's style but another to do it successfully, and the above describes how Klopp kept adapting anyway. It's in our own hands IMO. If we get things right other teams will have a lot of difficulty countering us, whether or not they figure out how to do it.

 

[Mystic]

I think that Klopps style will be harder to negate in the premier league than say Peps tikitaka, as the league has had plenty of experience and success in trying to prevent a possession game over the last few years, see Arsenal and us under Rodgers. However, a rapid counterattacking style has proven much more successful over the years, United at their prime swept teams away with it, and Leciester last season is another testament to its effectiveness. The high energy game is also effective because there is nothing the Stokes and West Broms of this league love more than to sit fantastically organised in formation, slow the game down, and wait for their opportunity for the sucker punch, that's where I feel Peps slower purposeful possession game will struggle compared to the high energy game Klopp employs, if you come straight at these teams they'll struggle, sitting back and playing patiently is exactly what they want. I remember the games under Rafa where we'd start at about four thousand miles an hour and almost always we disrupt those organised teams before they had a chance to settle, I really hope we see more of that this season, that was Rafas football at its best, and it was super effective.

Our biggest concern signing Klopp was that final season at Dortmund, but the challenges he's faced as outlined in that superb post (thanks for sharing Froggy) gives me lots of encouragement. He's going to face all of those problems here, probably this season, so the fact he's had to work around the problems before, and the fact that the troubles he faced in his last season would have been haunting him and finding a solution would have been consuming him during his sabbatical can only be a good thing for us, because no doubt teams will study what the other Bundasliga teams did to stop him that season, and I'm pretty sure he'll have an answer for how to deal with that now.

 

[gkmacca]

If you don't play the same way as Klopp's team then, provided Klopp's team has a really dangerous and incisive attacking line up (which, alas, it currently doesn't quite have), then you'll always struggle against him. The extreme fitness, industry, aggression and positivity will threaten any team. The stalemates will be against like-minded teams, as the games v Spurs suggested last season - there's no 'in-house' plan B when you face that kind of opponent, there's just relentless scampering around. It's good that Klopp knows how to anticipate and react, but what he really needs are better players. This team - unless Mane really finds season-long consistency, and Sturridge finds fitness, and/or Origi realises his potential - currently simply doesn't take enough of their chances to compete week in week out with the top four.

 

[leftpeg]

This team - unless Mane really finds season-long consistency, and Sturridge finds fitness, and/or Origi realises his potential - currently simply doesn't take enough of their chances to compete week in week out with the top four.

Agreed Macca, although in Mane, Sturridge and Origi there's enough to give me hope for this season. If they don't sufficiently fire then we really aren't at the races.

 

[Silver Sean]

I think Klopp's got a massive job on his hands to make a dent in the top four. We still have too many players who lack consistency. We're as likely to stuff a top side as we are to concede a load of shit goals against a shit side. Same, same as always. One week world beaters, next week shithouses.

 

[gkmacca]

I'd be intrigued to know what the morale was like over time at Dortmund. When you're winning then, of course, all is fine, but when you have a manager who really trains the team very hard and demands exceptional physical industry out on the pitch, the intrinsic laziness of some players will surely make them come to resent it unless the team remains on the rise. His charisma and engaging personality is a good counter-balance, but even now I look at one or two players and wonder how long they're going to keep tolerating the pressure to perform in this way. He'll have to keep weeding out the half-hearted players from the squad.

 

[manwithnoname]

I'd be intrigued to know what the morale was like over time at Dortmund. When you're winning then, of course, all is fine, but when you have a manager who really trains the team very hard and demands exceptional physical industry out on the pitch, the intrinsic laziness of some players will surely make them come to resent it unless the team remains on the rise. His charisma and engaging personality is a good counter-balance, but even now I look at one or two players and wonder how long they're going to keep tolerating the pressure to perform in this way. He'll have to keep weeding out the half-hearted players from the squad.

There's a few managers who have that type of work ethic, and have a quite open "revolving door" policy (with transfers and also squad rotation during the season) to keep the squad fresh and enthused.

Mourinho is one that always likes to do this, and Benitez to an extent.

It's definitely an issue, because demanding that intensity at all times is physically and mentally wearing, and as you say, many players can't handle it, especially if the success runs dry and the methods don't seem to be working as well.

I suspect the thinly-veiled comments being fired between Klopp and Mkhtaryan could be one example.

 

[rurikbird]

There's a few managers who have that type of work ethic, and have a quite open "revolving door" policy (with transfers and also squad rotation during the season) to keep the squad fresh and enthused.

Mourinho is one that always likes to do this, and Benitez to an extent.

It's definitely an issue, because demanding that intensity at all times is physically and mentally wearing, and as you say, many players can't handle it, especially if the success runs dry and the methods don't seem to be working as well.

I suspect the thinly-veiled comments being fired between Klopp and Mkhtaryan could be one example.

Interesting theory, but not sure it's supported by the facts all that much. Mkhitaryan wasn't a case of someone who started great but later got "worn out" by the intensity – on the contrary he didn't quite settle right away and only really got going after Klopp left. There was no chance of a reunion there. On the other hand, Şahin and Kagawa happily came back to Borussia after less successful stints elsewhere, Gotze almost made his reunion with Klopp this year, before chickening out, lots of other former Klopp's players were linked with us, which shows the conventional wisdom that former players are eager to work with him again. And Dortmund's core players like Reus, Hummels, Subotic, Lewandowski, Kuba, Kagawa, Grosskreutz, Piszczek, Schmelzer etc were all quite consistent during their time with Klopp – more or less going from strength to strength rather than "burning out."

His main problem, in my view, was Dortmund's inability to keep their leaders – every year 1 or 2 of their best players would leave for greener pastures and having to reinvent the team every year and find new leaders was difficult even for Klopp. The loss of Gotze was a particularly painful blow for the club and Klopp personally – they really thought he was the local talent they will build the team around for many years to come and instead he chose to join their main rival. To make it worse, his replacement in Mkhitaryan didn't fit in quite as well as some other replacements over the years.

 

[rurikbird]

Klopp talked about this very issue in an interview from a few days ago:

“There hasn’t been a successful team in world football who change their squad every year. You need to keep your key players. That’s a very important thing.
“You have to create a situation where you are successful. A situation where everyone feels in a good way and we are strong enough and patient enough to keep them together.

 

[Judge Jules]

While I like the sound of that, is Klopp actually correct with that first statement? For example I remember reading an interview with Gianluca Vialli (I think it was) some years ago in which he said Juve had a policy of continuous improvement which usually meant at least one important player leaving every summer.

 

[manwithnoname]

While I like the sound of that, is Klopp actually correct with that first statement? For example I remember reading an interview with Gianluca Vialli (I think it was) some years ago in which he said Juve had a policy of continuous improvement which usually meant at least one important player leaving every summer.

If you don't constantly improve and refresh the team, you will not have continued success

Baconface was a master at this. As were previous great Liverpool managers.

Mourinho spat his dummy in his last stint at Chelsea because he got none of his requested new players, and almost downed tools in his typically petulant way.

Wenger always puts far too much trust in his existing squad and injured or out of form players. Which is why he hasn't won the title for over a decade

Guardiola knew that too, and was always trying to change up, improve and reinvigorate his teams, even after unrivalled success. And he left Barca when he thought his methods and techniques were stagnating and having less effect on his players

Admittedly Klopp had those decisions taken out of his hands at Dortmund, because he couldn't dictate who came and went, so he lost one player a season at least to Bayern or whoever

People criticise Mourinho for not being able to create a dynasty or legacy or whatever. But he knows how and why he is successful. If you remove the obvious outlier Ferguson, there isn't any manager who has stayed at a club for more than 5-6 seasons and maintained success

Perhaps Simeone will, but I think he's in his last season at AM. Perhaps Klopp would have if he had the financial clout of Bayern

But I doubt it

 

[The Nomad]

Both Guardiola and Mourinho aren't able to create dynasties, because they haven't bought enough youth in the past, they buy the 27/28 year olds at their peak (usually), which means their teams after 3/4 years get too old/not enough desire to improve. Look at Bayern now with their wingers, Ribery and Robben are too old together.

Just my theory.

 

[manwithnoname]

Both Guardiola and Mourinho aren't able to create dynasties, because they haven't bought enough youth in the past, they buy the 27/28 year olds at their peak (usually), which means their teams after 3/4 years get too old/not enough desire to improve. Look at Bayern now with their wingers, Ribery and Robben are too old together.

Just my theory.

It's not just about buying young players and keeping them for years. All great teams have had a good blend of experience and youth.

And Mourinho's first great Chelsea team was pretty young, with Lampard, Johnson, Terry, Cech, Robben, Duff, Drogba, Gallas (was he about 26?) etc, with some older players like Makele, Carvalho et al.

 

[The Nomad]

It's not just about buying young players and keeping them for years. All great teams have had a good blend of experience and youth.

And Mourinho's first great Chelsea team was pretty young, with Lampard, Johnson, Terry, Cech, Robben, Duff, Drogba, Gallas (was he about 26?) etc, with some older players like Makele, Carvalho et al.

Exactly, it's about blooding youth with experience, something that I believe both Pep and Jose are pretty bad at, they want the finished article. Can you think of one youth player that either have really brought through? (Messi doesn't count, as Rijkaard brought him through towards the end of his final year)

 

[manwithnoname]

Exactly, it's about blooding youth with experience, something that I believe both Pep and Jose are pretty bad at, they want the finished article. Can you think of one youth player that either have really brought through? (Messi doesn't count, as Rijkaard brought him through towards the end of his final year)

You could argue Guardiola did some great work with younger players like Busquets, Pique, Alaba, Boateng et al

 

[The Nomad]

You could argue Guardiola did some great work with younger players like Busquets, Pique, Alaba, Boateng et al

Busquets I'll give you, the rest not so much.
Pique was bought
Alaba was established before Pep arrived
Boateng also bough.

 

[manwithnoname]

Busquets I'll give you, the rest not so much.
Pique was bought
Alaba was established before Pep arrived
Boateng also bough.

I know they were bought. I just suggested that they may have improved immeasurably under him.

cf Frank Lampard at Chelsea.

 

[gene hughes]

I forgot all about Al. God, how I hated that bastard.

 

[Woland]

It's not just about buying young players and keeping them for years. All great teams have had a good blend of experience and youth.

And Mourinho's first great Chelsea team was pretty young, with Lampard, Johnson, Terry, Cech, Robben, Duff, Drogba, Gallas (was he about 26?) etc, with some older players like Makele, Carvalho et al.

Ranieri assembled it.

 

[ILD]

Yeah Cech and Robben were great that year and were bought by Rainieri. Mourinho did add Carvalho and Drogba to it though.