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Our presumed line up and weaknesses.

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Modo

Modo

A contentious scando
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I know that this has been partly mentioned in other threads, so sorry for the repeat.

Let's start by presuming that Coutinho stays.

Forget the keeper, forget the back line.

Can and Henderson will probably pair up in the middle with Coutinho infront of them.
Mane and Salah will be our wingforwards.
Firmino upfront.
The diamond shaped attack will probably attack as a unit. One of our full backs will always be in support, depending on the focus of the attack.

That leaves Can and Henderson as our primary support in midfield for our defence. Can as we all know will probably go on his marauding forward runs, Hendo will drop deep. I'm not the only one who's been harping on and on about a DM but surely we look a bit weak in defence.
Attack being the best form of defence is all good and well but we've seen how susceptible we are to counter attacks. I mean it's entertaining to beat Norwich by 4 goals to 3 but it's almost tactically irresponsible. Other games like the ones against Bournemouth and Burnley also showed this.
A new CB in Van Dijk isn't gonna solve this problem. A specialist DM doesn't fit in Klopps system apparently. So is everyone happy with the options we have in those midfield roles?
Outside Henderson and Can, who do we have that can play in those roles? Wijnaldum isn't that type of player. Neither is Grujic. Milner? Possibly but he's not really been tested in midfield.
I dunno, just seems like a defensive minded midfielder or a midfielder that can defend or whatever, is the way to go and I'm not even talking about replacing Can or Henderson, I'm talking about a back up.
Oh, and Can hasn't signed a new contract.
 
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Although some Australia based wronguns disagree, I presume the preferred starting 11 when everyone is fit is going to be:

.............Mignolet
Clyne..Lovren..Matip..Moreno(?!)
........Henderson..Can
..............Coutinho
Mane......Firmino........Salah

I've only put Moreno in there as Klopp has been raving about him, and he's said Milner goes back into midfield.

It looks pretty much the same as last season for me - we're going to be brilliant going forwards, that team is not going to struggle for goals. But the defence have no cover in Can/Henderson, and the keeper wont have any faith in his defence because of that. So we'll continue to leak goals. I think we're marginally improved because Coutinho can help to unlock tricky defences from his new position, but teams are going to continue to have 1 shot 1 goal against us.
 
Modo said:
I know that this has been mentioned in other threads, so let's start by presuming that Coutinho stays.

Forget the keeper, forget the back line.

Can and Henderson will probably pair up in the middle with Coutinho infront of them.
Mane and Salah will be our wingforwards.
Firmino upfront.
The diamond shaped attack will probably attack as a unit. One of our full backs will always be in support, depending on the focus of the attack.

That leaves Can and Henderson as our primary support in midfield for our defence. Can as we all know will probably go on his marauding forward runs, Hendo will drop deep. I'm not the only one who's been harping on and on about a DM but surely we look a bit weak in defence.
Attack being the best form of defence is all good and well but we've seen how susceptible we are to counter attacks. I mean it's entertaining to beat Norwich by 4 goals to 3 but it's almost tactically irresponsible. Other games like the ones against Bournemouth and Burnley also showed this.
A new CB in Van Dijk isn't gonna solve this problem. A specialist DM doesn't fit in Klopps system apparently. So is everyone happy with the options we have in those midfield roles?
Outside Henderson and Can, who do we have that can play in those roles? Wijnaldum isn't that type of player. Neither is Grujic. Milner? Possibly but he's not really been tested in midfield.
I dunno, just seems like a defensive minded midfielder or a midfielder that can defend or whatever, is the way to go and I'm not even talking about replacing Can or Henderson, I'm talking about a back up.
Oh, and Can hasn't signed a new contract.
Click to expand...
Midfield is piss weak. In fitness and in ability.

I honestly wouldn't mind similar players to can and hendo in those positions just an upgrade on ability. Naby keita was an upgrade on can I feel, as he did the marauding runs from deep, as well as defend well.

Henderson we need because his range of passing is just too good. Wijnaldum I think is his understudy, and I think he can play a defensive role well, as he is excellent in possession, but maybe not as dynamic/aggressive in defence as hendo

I think our system relies heavily on cutting the channels through pressure which is why (I know you'll disagree) Lallana is a HUGE loss. His dynamism and constant running cuts a lot of early pressures out. Coutinho, whilst he can do it, I don't know if he's as good as Lallana (only on that 1 thing before anyone leaps on me)

Kuyt was the perfect defensive winger, I think Lallana is the perfect defensive AM

We COULD cope, but we're relying on players maintaining fitness for the whole season, and any understudies to be just as good

It's ridiculous to go in to the season relying on that though
 
Exactly, we are unbelievably top heavy. I have no worries at all about our attack but the squad we currently have is not even close to good enough to compete in four competitions.
I get that signing Ox will give us proper options for Mane and Salah, then there's Lallana, Wijnaldum, Milner and Grujic.
But not having any defensively capable midfield replacements is careless. Yeah we tried with Keita, but FFS try harder and get Can under contract or sell and buy two CM's pronto.
 
I'd prefer to play with a specialist defensive midfielder but Klopp doesn't seem too keen and wants the 3 players in midfield to be creative and support the defence which is fine if the players are mobile and defensively disciplined which I'm not too sure any of our midfielders are.
Can defends well when the ball is in front of him but is very slow on the turn and Coutinho closes down the spaces but you rarely see him tracking opposition players back around our own box. Wijnaldum is similar to Can in the way he defends in that he's slow and not very mobile.
Henderson is probably the best defensively but not outstanding. Milner again is susceptible to pace and Grujic tends to dive in a bit.
Too many times opposition players make runs past our midfield and don't get picked up which put the defence under too much pressure.
I think our main plan for defending is the high press which can be very effective and also gets us plenty of goals but the problem with that is if the opposition gets past the high press then we are nearly always outnumbered and that's why teams play counter attack against us.
 
davud graham said:
I'd prefer to play with a specialist defensive midfielder but Klopp doesn't seem too keen and wants the 3 players in midfield to be creative and support the defence which is fine if the players are mobile and defensively disciplined which I'm not too sure any of our midfielders are.
Can defends well when the ball is in front of him but is very slow on the turn and Coutinho closes down the spaces but you rarely see him tracking opposition players back around our own box. Wijnaldum is similar to Can in the way he defends in that he's slow and not very mobile.
Henderson is probably the best defensively but not outstanding. Milner again is susceptible to pace and Grujic tends to dive in a bit.
Too many times opposition players make runs past our midfield and don't get picked up which put the defence under too much pressure.
I think our main plan for defending is the high press which can be very effective and also gets us plenty of goals but the problem with that is if the opposition gets past the high press then we are nearly always outnumbered and that's why teams play counter attack against us.
Click to expand...
Totally agree, despite not being Hendersons biggest fan, he is our best DM option. Can isnt bad but you've highlighted his weaknesses pretty well.
Problem is both of them lack the defensive instinct of a proper DM. Yeah they can track back, win the occasional ball but their positioning is at times almost abysmal.
Lucas who is slow as fuck was miles better than both in anticipating and stopping players. Yes he got shit for those stupid fouls, but if he had the pace and agility as Henderson and Can he would have been so much better.
Basically, we haven't replaced Lucas.
 
Modo said:
Totally agree, despite not being Hendersons biggest fan, he is our best DM option. Can isnt bad but you've highlighted his weaknesses pretty well.
Problem is both of them lack the defensive instinct of a proper DM. Yeah they can track back, win the occasional ball but their positioning is at times almost abysmal.
Lucas who is slow as fuck was miles better than both in anticipating and stopping players. Yes he got shit for those stupid fouls, but if he had the pace and agility as Henderson and Can he would have been so much better.
Basically, we haven't replaced Lucas.
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I didn't have a problem with Lucas going as long as we brought in a player that was better than him which so far we haven't done.
Going by what Klopp has said it looks like Milner will be back in midfield this season but it was unclear whether he'll play in Lallana's position or the defensive midfield position that Lucas had. I don't think he's got the stamina and guile to play lallana's position or the defensive positioning that Lucas had, also he's just as slow as Lucas and gives just as many fouls away due to that lack of pace.
 
Depressing. Particularly after the all the bluster surrounding possibly the biggest spend in our history etc etc blah blah blah
Yeh, the window ain't shut yet, but if we just hang on for our two big targets and leave it late, this could easily be what we have for the season until January. And we all know how hard it is to buy targets in January...
 
Wijnaldum is one of the first names on the team sheet, and rightly so.

Guess we could look something like this come next weekend:

.........................Mingolet..........................
Clyne.........Matip.........Lovren......Moreno
................Gini...............Hendo................
Mane.................Coutinho...............Salah
........................Firmino.............................

That's a good team although there are some BIG q's over Lovren and in particular Moreno but I guess Robertson is ready to step in if there's not great improvement from the off from the lightning quick Spaniard.

For me it's not the starting line-up that's out main issue, it's the squad depth in particular for the defensive positions (CB/DM/LB/GK) as well as the striker position. Sturridge could be the answer and there have been early positive signs from Solanke. But Gomez, Robertson, Klavan, Karius/Ming, Grujic et all seems a bit on the week side. Can and Lallana could well be starting for us on another day, but it's inevitable that we'll have some injury problems at all stages. Our squad depths and the quality of it is an issue.

Biggest concern right now is probably the CB position for me. VVD or anyone else in that bracket would be a massive step in the right direction. A part of me thinks we are 'ok' I midfield as long as we don't get too many injuries. I could even be extremely blinkered and convince myself that Sturridge is back to his best, and then I wouldn't even be too concerned about goals either. But the CB position looks very, very weak as of right now..
 
I think that Milner is going to play the DM role this season. No data, just a hunch. He played primarily as a "defender" (yes I know a fullback has an entirely different role to a DM) but he's versatile, has a good engine, seems relatively durable, doesn't get bullied, has decent footballing intelligence, etc. He could step into that role and make it his as he plays out the remainder of his career.
 
Totally unrelated...
*cough*
Fast forward to about 1.12
*cough*



Sorry I seem to have a terrible cough at the moment.
 
You also have a terrible choice in videos.
Genuinely have no fucking clue what this is showing me.
(Other than Lucas). Oh.
 
Modo said:
I know that this has been partly mentioned in other threads, so sorry for the repeat.

Let's start by presuming that Coutinho stays.

Forget the keeper, forget the back line.

Can and Henderson will probably pair up in the middle with Coutinho infront of them.
Mane and Salah will be our wingforwards.
Firmino upfront.
The diamond shaped attack will probably attack as a unit. One of our full backs will always be in support, depending on the focus of the attack.

That leaves Can and Henderson as our primary support in midfield for our defence. Can as we all know will probably go on his marauding forward runs, Hendo will drop deep. I'm not the only one who's been harping on and on about a DM but surely we look a bit weak in defence.
Attack being the best form of defence is all good and well but we've seen how susceptible we are to counter attacks. I mean it's entertaining to beat Norwich by 4 goals to 3 but it's almost tactically irresponsible. Other games like the ones against Bournemouth and Burnley also showed this.
A new CB in Van Dijk isn't gonna solve this problem. A specialist DM doesn't fit in Klopps system apparently. So is everyone happy with the options we have in those midfield roles?
Outside Henderson and Can, who do we have that can play in those roles? Wijnaldum isn't that type of player. Neither is Grujic. Milner? Possibly but he's not really been tested in midfield.
I dunno, just seems like a defensive minded midfielder or a midfielder that can defend or whatever, is the way to go and I'm not even talking about replacing Can or Henderson, I'm talking about a back up.
Oh, and Can hasn't signed a new contract.
Click to expand...

I think every team nowadays is "top-heavy" by your definition. The football has changed since the days of Rafa and Mourinho 0:0 battles. By modern definition Henderson, Wijnaldum and Can are very much capable to be considered DMs.
 
Bit deflating them teams based on what we identified April/May as areas to strengthen. Yeah we'll score goals but we'll ship 50 again.
 
Glossing over this thread and basically only reading the title, we haven't addressed any of our weaknesses. Moreno is still here, Milner is still probably going to start as left back, we haven't bought a CB, we haven't improved the midfield, and we've only really strengthened attacking midfield - which we were already well-stocked in. So yeah, same weaknesses as before.
 
Halmeister said:
Glossing over this thread and basically only reading the title, we haven't addressed any of our weaknesses. Moreno is still here, Milner is still probably going to start as left back, we haven't bought a CB, we haven't improved the midfield, and we've only really strengthened attacking midfield - which we were already well-stocked in. So yeah, same weaknesses as before.
Click to expand...

Not the same weaknesses as before.

There's no Lucas.
 
We sold Lucas and Stewart. Not GREAT DMs by any stretch, but ACTUAL DMs.
And we did that one would assume working on the knowledge Keita was in the bag.
So we have fucked ourselves big time if we dont find a soulution.
 
rurikbird said:
I think every team nowadays is "top-heavy" by your definition. The football has changed since the days of Rafa and Mourinho 0:0 battles. By modern definition Henderson, Wijnaldum and Can are very much capable to be considered DMs.
Click to expand...
Wijnaldum is never a DM. Not in modern definitions, expressionist definitions or renaissance.
We are talking about a guy who used to be an attacking winger, then attacking mid, then attacking winger and now some kind of CM. He hasn't been Rafa'd into a DM.
 
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Modo said:
Wijnaldum is never a DM. Not in modern definitions, expressionist definitions or renaissance.
We are talking about a guy who used to be an attacking winger, then attacking mid, then attacking winger and now some kind of CM. He hasn't been Rafa's into a DM.
Click to expand...

Is Fernandinho a DM by your definition? Is Yaya Toure?
 
rurikbird said:
Is Fernandinho a DM by your definition? Is Yaya Toure?
Click to expand...
Both are more of a DM than Wijnaldum.
Yaya reminds me of Viera who also was sort of a DM.
Point is, Wijnaldum is more of a CM/AM, while both Yaya and Nandinho are DM/CM.
Just look at their history, Wijnaldum has never played as an out and out DM, the other two have, on several occasions.
 
Modo said:
Both are more of a DM than Wijnaldum.
Yaya reminds me of Viera who also was sort of a DM.
Point is, Wijnaldum is more of a CM/AM, while both Yaya and Nandinho are DM/CM.
Just look at their history, Wijnaldum has never played as an out and out DM, the other two have, on several occasions.
Click to expand...

Fernandinho also never played DM until he got to Manchester City – I watched him every week for Shakhtar and he was more of an attacking playmaker and at times played as a straight-up AM. Then he came to England as a more mature player and the coaches gradually started moving him deeper. Wijnaldum is going through the same transition, as Klopp is moving him ever deeper into midfield and this pre-season is already experimenting with him as the deepest-lying midfielder. BTW Gini already did play as a DM for the National team, for instance at the World Cup against Costa Rica:

Screen_Shot_2017-08-08_at_3.43.48_AM.png


Same for Yaya Toure – he was not a DM when he came to Barcelona, he became one at Barca. Viera was never a DM, he was the definition of a box-to-box player while Petit and Ray Parlour were the defensive specialists in those great Arsenal teams.

Depending on who you ask, a DM might mean this kind of versatile multi-talented player who in the mature stage of their career moves deeper into midfield – Schweinsteiger or Arteta are classic examples – or it can mean a player with severely limited attacking skills who is more like a 5th centre-back playing in midfield: Nigel De Jong, Mascherano, Javi Martinez, Obi Mikel, Lucas etc. If your definition is the 2nd one, then actually not many teams nowadays employ such players with any regularity (see Fernando at Man City who plays only occasionally) and actually the current trend is to convert such players to CB. If your definition is the first one, then Can, Hendo and increasingly even Wijnaldum fit this definition just about as well as any of our rivals' midfielders.

BTW Keita would have not satisfied your desire for a "quality DM" , because he quite obviously belongs to the first (versatile and multi-talented) category.
 
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rurikbird said:
Fernandinho also never played DM until he got to Manchester City – I watched him every week for Shakhtar and he was more of an attacking playmaker and at times played as a straight-up AM. Then he came to England as a more mature player and the coaches gradually started moving him deeper. Wijnaldum is going through the same transition, Klopp moving him deeper into midfield last season and this pre-season already trying him as the deepest-lying midfielder. BTW he already did play as a DM for the National team, for instance at the World Cup against Costa Rica:

Screen_Shot_2017-08-08_at_3.43.48_AM.png


Same for Yaya Toure – when he came to Barcelona, he was not a DM, he became one already at Barca. Viera was never a DM, he was a definition of a box-to-box player whereas Petit and Ray Parlour were the defensive specialists in those teams.

Depending on who you ask, a DM might mean this kind of versatile multi-talented player who in the mature stage of their career moves deeper into midfield – Schweinsteiger or Arteta are classic examples – or it can mean a player with severely limited attacking skills who is more like a 5th centre-back playing in midfield: Nigel De Jong, Mascherano, Javi Martinez, Obi Mikel, Lucas etc. If your definition is the 2nd one, then actually not many teams nowadays employ such players with any regularity (see Fernando at Man City who plays only occasionally) and actually the current trend is to convert such players to CB. If your definition is the first one, then Can, Hendo and increasingly even Wijnaldum fit this definition as well as any of our rivals' midfielders.
Click to expand...
Take him to school, Rurik.
 
It's interesting to see the quality of centre backs in that Holland side.
 
rurikbird said:
Fernandinho also never played DM until he got to Manchester City – I watched him every week for Shakhtar and he was more of an attacking playmaker and at times played as a straight-up AM. Then he came to England as a more mature player and the coaches gradually started moving him deeper. Wijnaldum is going through the same transition, as Klopp is moving him ever deeper into midfield and this pre-season is already experimenting with him as the deepest-lying midfielder. BTW Gini already did play as a DM for the National team, for instance at the World Cup against Costa Rica:

Screen_Shot_2017-08-08_at_3.43.48_AM.png


Same for Yaya Toure – he was not a DM when he came to Barcelona, he became one at Barca. Viera was never a DM, he was the definition of a box-to-box player while Petit and Ray Parlour were the defensive specialists in those great Arsenal teams.

Depending on who you ask, a DM might mean this kind of versatile multi-talented player who in the mature stage of their career moves deeper into midfield – Schweinsteiger or Arteta are classic examples – or it can mean a player with severely limited attacking skills who is more like a 5th centre-back playing in midfield: Nigel De Jong, Mascherano, Javi Martinez, Obi Mikel, Lucas etc. If your definition is the 2nd one, then actually not many teams nowadays employ such players with any regularity (see Fernando at Man City who plays only occasionally) and actually the current trend is to convert such players to CB. If your definition is the first one, then Can, Hendo and increasingly even Wijnaldum fit this definition just about as well as any of our rivals' midfielders.
Click to expand...

memo to self
Never argue with @rurikbird
 
You make a few good points but Ray Parlour a defensive specialist? He was a winger and a workhorse, played in CM as well but I'd never regard him as a defensive specialist.
With DM, I do mean the 2nd definition. Spurs play with Wanyama, Man U just bought Matic there's more but I mean now we're discussing semantics. Teams might not play with an out and out DM, but they have players that can fill that role if needed and are good defensively. We don't anymore.
Do we have someone who could have stopped Lukaku as effectively as Lucas did in that game last season? No.
What you are talking about is the Alonso, Herrera, Arteta etc type players who also act as playmakers. Alonso was amazing positionally but if you think back we were at our best when he was paired up with Hamann, Mascherano or Sissoko.
I wish we had one of those and again none of our midfielders fit that mould and Wijnaldum definitely doesn't.
Just because someone can play in a DM role a la Gerrard, Hendo and Can, doesn't mean they are a DM.
We have a severe case of defensively bad midfielders at the moment. I wish we had someone like Fernandinho cause he could do the job defensively even if he per definition isn't a DM.
 
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